BURGOYNE Family of Plymouth (Ancestors of Cleopatra Cecilia Burgoyne, b. 1844)

[Limeburner Mitchell]

G'day DF - welcome to RootsChat and to this thread!

I would be very happy indeed if through the course of this conversation we solve your Jane Burgoyne riddle.  Especially as Josias and Jane wound up in St Agnes, the region wherein a very healthy proportion of my genetic inheritance bubbled about for generations.

All I know of Elizabeth Prowse/Prouse is this:

• according to the 1851 Census, she was born in Christow in about 1787
• she married Thomas Giles, silversmith in Plymouth St Andrew on 15 Nov 1812
• her known children with Thomas Giles were in order: Elizabeth Prouse (bp 1813); Thomas (bp 1815); Susan Smith (bp 1818); Sally (bp 1821); Sarah (bp 1826) and Stephen (bp 1826).

If Thomas and Elizabeth Giles followed textbook naming convention, Elizabeth's mother was also an Elizabeth.  Her father would most probably have been either another Thomas, or Stephen.

Out of curiosity, how old was Jane when she wed Josias in 1830?

Kind regards,

Grant, dawdling online instead of getting off to work ...

[dfowler]

Prowse/Burgoyne.
Thanks for the info. It will be a few days before I am reunited with my records but will aim to answer by the weekend. As the second Prowse family had joined mine in Christow c 1760 and there were Elizabeths in both I will not guess the answer. Depending on the answer i may be able to help with the 'Smith' name.

I should have made it clear that I have not found the actual marriage date or place for Josias Prowse and Jane Burgoyne. Josias had 3 daurs from his first marriage of whom 2 surfaced in Cornwall as adults but most children incl the US branch came from the Prowse/Burgoyne union.

DF

[Limeburner Mitchell]

G'day again DF,

a couple of years ago the lovely people at the Devon Family History Society sent me lists of all the Burgoyne (var.) marriage transcriptions they had on record, as far back as 1754. 

They show that 'James' Prowse married Jane Burgoyne in the South Hams parish of Loddiswell on 17 Nov 1836. 

Probably some chance that this is your Josias and Jane, but do the dates stack up for you?

Incidentally, there's another Loddiswell marriage that may be of interest.  Back on 28 July 1784, Thomas Prowse married Elizabeth Burgoyne there.

And while I'm introducing potential Prowse/Burgoyne red herrings, just for completeness, another James Prowse married Ann Burgoine in Churchstow on 02 Nov 1774. 

Back to Josias and Jane for a moment. 

The absolutely splendid folk at the Devon Family History Society also sent me transcriptions of Burgoyne (var.) baptisms going back to 1813.  One of these indicates that Jane Lane Burgoyne was baptised in Loddiswell on the 05 Sep 1813.  Her father was Robert Burgoyne of Loddiswell, a husbandman, and her mother was Catherine. 

Just checking the Burgoyne (var.) marriages again, Robert Burgoine married Catharine Lane in Churchstow on 02 Feb 1802. 

Hope these are helpful.  Have a great day!

Cheers

Grant

[Burg]

 :)I was interested in your posts on the Burgoyne family of Plymouth.   I am a descendant of the family of William Burgoyne and Dorothy Burgoyne nee Maddick.   They had 7 children that I have been able to find - James b 1808 in Kingsbridge, John b 1817 in Plymouth, Sarah Hardy b 1820 d 1824, William b 1807 Kingsbridge, Elizabeth Randell b 1812 Plymouth. George (father of Hannah Burgoyne) and Frederick b 1814 in Plymouth d 1863 in Sierra Leone Africa.   Frederick is my family line, he married Elizabeth Thomas in 1833 and they had two children, Frederick and Erwin.   Elizabeth died in abt. 1839 and Frederick married Mary Courtis/Curtis in 1840.   Sometime between 1841 and 1851 Frederick Jnr died and in 1843 Frederick William  was born  (my ggrandfather) they also had a daughter Mary Courtis who died in 1846 and twin sons Charles and Edward born 1847.   Sometime after 1861 Frederick William came to Australia but unfortunately I have not been able to find him arriving in Australia.   If you have any further information on this part of the family I would love to hear it.   Burg

[Rol]

Hello Burg,


Welcome to the forum,  and especially to the Burgoyne of Plymouth thread.

Well,  well.  This family just keeps expanding!  Have you got full chapter-and-verse data on the siblings you list?  In particular,  I wonder whether you have found a baptism for George;  or perhaps you included him purely on the basis of the discussion here about him (esp. Replies 16-19).  Also,  it would be good to have the church/chapel and date of baptism for Frederick (b.1814).

I notice that Grant's tree* on the Anc***ry.com site includes a second William (b.1811),  implying that the first one died young,  but I am not sure that he has yet discovered a matching baptism.


Rol



* (Full title:  Mitchell-Stephens Limeburner-Sadler Family Tree)

[Burg]

Hi Rol.   In answer to your question, no I do not have baptism dates for either George or Frederick.   Only that Frederick was born 1814 in Plymouth Devon and as for George I am assuming that he is a brother of Frederick as he was a carpenter or Joiner like the rest of them.   Frederick was also a carpenter/joiner and it was stated in his probate that he was an acting Engineer in the Royal Engineer Department of Her Majesty's War Office and he was in Sierra Leone on the West Coast of Africa.   His wife is named as Mary Burgoyne of No. 73 Coburgh Street Plymouth widow.   

I have not been able to find a census on this family for 1851, however, when in Plymouth about 20 years ago I tried to look at the fiche of these census and it was impossible to read.   In the 1861 census, they are down as Mary Burgoine, William, Charles and Edward Burgoine and a niece Anna ( which I think is Hannah Burgoyne) this census address was Coburgh Street Plymouth.   Hannah later married George H Jenkins an artist and Landscape Artist and they lived in Plymouth.

The William referred to in the 1861 census is actually Frederick William my g grandfather.   In about 1992 we had a Mrs Guthrig of Plympton Plymouth do some research on our family and she was the one who found the birth date for Frederick and who his parents were.   I will look forther in my reams of paper to see if I have any information on George or any other members of the family for that matter.
Burg

   

[Rol]

Hello again Burg,  and many thanks for that extra info.

So we now have quite a pattern here.  Three brothers working as civilian clerks of works on RE construction projects -- i.e. seemingly (at least later in their respective careers) acting as in-house managers rather than contracting builders/engineers,  and probably with salaried positions.

1.  William:  works on the China Coast (Hong Kong).

2.  John (Cleo's father):  works in Ireland (Curragh + Dundalk).

3.  Frederick:  works in W. Africa (Sierra Leone).

I wonder which sibling made the first family breakthrough into this line of work.  Could their father even have once had some similar rôle?  Given that they all seem to have worked mainly overseas,  another thought that stirs again in my mind is that John's mystery transatlantic travels in the early 1850s could also have been on War Office business.  Barracks or fortifications in the Bahamas?  And maybe the visit to Boston Baltimore was made en route to some analogous government project in Canada?

It is strange that some of those early 19th c. Devon baptisms remain so elusive.


Rol

[Burg]

Hi Rol,  I was looking at some information I received from Devon Family History Society for Baptisms 1813 - 1839.   In it I found that William and Dorothy had a son Erwin born 07.04.1816 in Jubilee Street Plymouth Charles .   Also William and Grace had a son Erwin born 25.12.1835 Raleigh Street Plymouth  St Andrew.   The name Erwin must have  been a family name as Frederick and Elizabeth had a son Erwin, James and Elizabeth had a son James Erwin.   When I see the name Erwin I immediately think that it is a possible family member.

Burg

[Limeburner Mitchell]

Hi Rol,  I was looking at some information I received from Devon Family History Society for Baptisms 1813 - 1839.   In it I found that William and Dorothy had a son Erwin born 07.04.1816 in Jubilee Street Plymouth Charles .   Also William and Grace had a son Erwin born 25.12.1835 Raleigh Street Plymouth  St Andrew.   The name Erwin must have  been a family name as Frederick and Elizabeth had a son Erwin, James and Elizabeth had a son James Erwin.   When I see the name Erwin I immediately think that it is a possible family member.

This is very spooky, Burg.  While I was looking at the Devon Family History Society - Baptisms - 1813 to 1839 this morning re DF's posts, I noticed the Erwin entry with William and Dorothy as parents for the very first time.  I would guess I've looked at those transcriptions - very carefully I thought! - at least a handful of times and never seen it before.  A chill ran down my spine I can tell you; Erwin's my ancestor John's immediately elder brother and the last of his family born in Jubilee Street. 

I wonder where the Erwin comes in?  I'd be tipping perhaps a Maddick maternal name as to my knowledge there's no evidence of it appearing in earlier Burgoyne generations.  But take that with a grain of salt - as 'The Great Erwin Overlooking Incidents of 2009-10' indicate - clearly my comprehension skills are highly suspect!

The other information you provide from research done back in 1992 seems entirely plausible and it's marvellous that you've shared it with us. 

One of the interesting aspects was the Cobourg Street address for Frederick's widow in 1861.  When Dorothy (nee Maddick) and Elizabeth Burgoyne died in 1858 and 1873 respectively, their addresses were in Cobourg Street.  Did the building Burgoynes colonise Cobourg Street from the 1850s just as exuberantly as they seemed to have done in Raleigh Street in the 1840s? 

Rol, you're quite correct about the two Williams in my tree.  I have the 1811 version in there because I'm not sure whether the 1807 version is the 30 year old William in the 1841 Census (and who seems to suddenly be 26 when his will is proved in 1851).  As you've indicated, Devon baptisms earlier than 1813 aren't easy to come by for time-poor folk!  The 1807 William was most certainly baptised in Kingsbridge, as Burg points out.  He's probably our William but I'd like to be certain. 

Anyhow, got a family to get to bed - must dash!

'Night all!

Grant