'Lost' graves in or around Peaslake......

[Jake Drummond]

Despite many more hours of searching I'm no nearer to finding the graves of either John Bain Gardner or his second wife Ethel (nee Cooper). I did have one lead (whether genuine or not I cannot say) but that seems to have fizzled out.
Attempts to find documentation for John Gardner ran out when my application was rejected as I didn't know a place of death, and guessing that it was in or around Shere/Pealske/Leatherhead was not enough.
Telephone calls to Cooper's in the BT Residential phone book for a thirty mile radisus of Shere failed to find anyone who knew of Ethel, or her marriage to John Gardner.

We're heading for the area on the 18th of the month (August) and have hopes that simply walking around every graveyard in the area will result in success. We'll start at Peaslake in the hope that Cintara's posts were genuine.

Can anyone suggest a shortcut to finding the graves? I'll happily pay for information if that's what is required; the trip from here in Scotland and accommodation will amount to a substantial sum anyway.

[dawnsh]

Hi Jake

I'm sorry to see that your efforts have not given you the results you hoped for.

If you have still not got this death certificate

Mar 1943
GARDNER  John B, aged  62,  Surrey Mid E.  2a 236

might I suggest you try again.

Re-reading your earlier posts, I think you may not have made a correct application to the General Register Office at www.gro.gov.uk

As you make an online application, their system asks you

Is the GRO Index Reference Number known? Yes or no

Using the information above, you say yes and then proceed to enter the details from the death index. You will not be asked for an actual date or place of death.

As a way though of ensuring this is your John Bain Gardner's certificate, enter the middle name in full rather than just the initial B as given in the index. If the middle name is not Bain, they will reject your application and give you a refund. If it is your man, you will get the cert in 5-7 working days.

The headstone you have seen at Putney Vale might be that of John & Lilian Gardner who were living at 23 Gladwyn Road, Putney from 1921-1939. They are in the electoral registers before the war but I can't easily find Lilian on her own after.


To further satisfy your curiosity, you could ring Wandsworth council who manage Putney Vale and make further enquiries about the John & Lilian who are buried there. They seem to make a charge for look-ups but you might get away with a free search as you have the exact dates of death. You could ask if they are the John & Lilian who were residing at Gladwyn Road, this should rule them in or out for you.

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200032/deaths_funerals_and_cremations/86/cemeteries_and_crematorium/2

If you are unsure of what I've written here send me a pm.

Hope this helps.

Dawn

[Jake Drummond]

Dawn, you're an angel! I did as you suggested and I've managed to order a certificate, so fingers crossed it's the one I need and is here before we head south.
I can't understand why the staff at the GRO could not explain, as you did, the way to source the certificate!

I'll post my results when we get the certificate and if/when we find what I'm looking for; 'Lost' graves in or around Peaslake!

Many, many thanks.

Jake

[dawnsh]

Hi Jake

It was a slow morning at home today so I've left a message with the churchwarden at St Marks Peaslake about 1943 burials. She hasn't rung back yet, she may be out at work, if she does I'll ask some questions. The church burial register may not be full yet, (the church was consecrated 1889ish) because it hasn't been deposited at the Surrey History Centre.

I did phone bereavement services at Guildford but his name does not show up on their computer records which infers he wasn't buried in a municipal cemetery there.

If he isn't at Peaslake, or in Guidlford, is there any chance he went home to Scotland for burial, a slim chance I know because of the war and expense.

Dawn

[Jake Drummond]

Hi Dawn,
  Your help here is invaluable! It's really good of you to do all the calling around from me; I didn't have contact details for St Marks nor had I thought of doing that.
I did try a message to the Shere Museum Collection and to the Shere, Gomshall and Peaslake Local History Society a year ago (at least) but go no reply from either.
Likewise a request for assistance from the Surrey County Council's offices whose webpages suggest that they have resources including a book on Peaslake Cemetery's monumental inscriptions was not replied to.
I even tried the local Guardian online and found nothing.

I think the John and Lilian Gardner grave is not 'mine' I suspect as there's no evidence really to point to that.
The chances of John being brought home to Wemyss is very slim for the reasons you mention, and I think that where Ethel is he will be also.
A much older cousin thought that Leatherhead might be where he is buried, but her memory is none too good, and she then wondered if that was simply where the train they had been on had stopped on the way down one time.

What I have for Ethel is as follows;
Ethel Cooper's birth was registered in Guildford in December 1874, daughter of Thomas Cooper and Eliza Ladd.
 
She married John (after the death of his first wife) at St Giles Edinburgh 17/10/1921. John was given as aged 40, usual residence at Wemyss Terrace, Ethel was given as aged 43, her usual residence given as 23 The Square, Penicuik, which was the home of a Bain family member, as yet I've found no real link to John BAIN Gardner, but he will be related.

Ethel was said to be "3 years older than John" and is said to have survived him. (Info from my cousin Janet Gardner) She worked in service (from my Mum) somewhere around Guilford and "had a sister Dolly. Dolly had one child; Cliff? Atholl? Dolly was crippled with arthritis, like her mum." (from Janet Gardner)

1891 Census shows Ethel Cooper was scullery maid to Herbert Edlmann of Hound House,  Surrey

1901 Ethel was House Parlour Maid in Morden, at "Chalgrove" 3, Central Road, Morden, home of Emma H. Campbell.

1911 census........ as above

1921 Ethel was married to JBG in Edinburgh, usual residence given as 23 The Square, Penicuik. John was given as aged 40, usual residence at Wemyss Terrace, Ethel was given as aged 43.
The marriage witness was Isabella Robertson Bain, married to James Bain Paper Mill Worker, lived at North Cottage, West Street, Penicuik.
(I think that this James Bain was John Bain Gardner's uncle. My grandfather was given as John Gardner Bain on his birth certificate in 1881, born to Agnes Bain and listed as illegitimate. Seven years later Agnes married John Gardner........ cart before horse!)

1956 Death certificate shows that Ethel died in 1956 at 8 St James, Hale Road, Farnham, probably a rest home. She was 81 years old, and given as Widow of John Gardner, Coal Miner, and she died from a Coronary Atheroma, Certified by F Bedo Hobbs MD, informant given as H. Cooper, Brother, of 3 East View, Peaslake.

Fingers crossed that the death certificate is the right one and that it shows place of death, which might just be enough to pinpoint a town or village.

[alanmack]

Jake, Dawn,
                 From the example of my G. Aunt who died Feb 1940 in Herts. and her cremated remains were buried in her daughter's grave in the Isle of Wight. At that time travel to the Island was by all accounts very difficult and great trouble was taken, clearly. I suggest don't discount the possibility of a crematorium and your chap's ashes going North.

Interesting thread BTW.

Alan

[Jake Drummond]

Thanks Alan for your post.
I wondered at one point if grandad John Bain Gardner may have been a victim of a bombing raid, but then I think that would have been mentioned by someone in the family. Likewise I think that had he been here in Scotland my mother would have visited his grave, either at Dysart where he was born, or at East Wemyss where his first wife is buried.
I do recall as a child often walking through the local cemetery with my mother, and we always took the same route to the corner where her mum (JBG's first wife) is buried.

Mum's best memories always centered around her youth in the Peaslake and Shere area, with trips to Esher and Wimbledon Common, which is on 5 miles or so from 'Chalgrove' in Morden where Ethel's last known place of employ was prior to her marriage to JBG.
Maybe this was where they all were post 1921, Ethel, JBG and my mum all living there?

Another thought springs to mind; why would Ethel's death certificate giver her as widow to JBG "Coal Miner", when he was long away from the pits up here...... unless he was still mining in that area? Were there coal mines nearby?

[dawnsh]

Hi

The church warden phoned and I gave her the 1943 information to check out.

The churchyard at Peaslake is detached from the church, and appears to be controlled by the pcc not the diocese which is why the deposited records don't appear in the Surrey parish list prepared by the History centre.

The warden hasn't phoned back yet, but she has copies of the burial register in the church office which is visiting tomorrow. She suggested that it wouldn't be too difficult to check out the burials as very few are buried per year. She said that she would check out for Ethel as well, but I didn't have her death date to hand so her search may not reveal Ethel unless there is a note in the register.

As to being a 'coal miner', that was the convention for occupations on death certs. My great grandfather is shown as a Funeral Director on his death cert, albeit retired for many years prior to his death. Nowadays, there is the addition of 'retired'. In those days men had a job and job title for life.

As soon as I get a reply, I'll let you know.

Dawn

[Jake Drummond]

Good evening Dawn,
  I think that I'm right in making a few arrangements and heading Peaslake way on the 18th of the month, even given that I've no other positive pointers yet. A talk with a ten year older brother of mine brought up the same place names; Peaslake, Morden, Shere etc.
We'll find a B&B nearby I should think. I did try booking at the hotel in Peaslake but they seem confused about room charges!
 
Lets hope the Church Warden can either confirm or discount Peaslake cemetery as the location of one or both of the Gardners. I thank you sincerely for putting your local knowledge to use and will treat you to lunch when we're down!

JBG would be buried somewhere in 1943 and I think his death certificate will be the guide to the location and Ethel would likely go beside him.
If it is Leatherhead as cousin Janet thought (or not!) then maybe they sourced a plot there, in which case the bereavement services there might have information.
BUT, if she had family in Shere/Peaslake cemetery she may have gone to a family plot. 
Lots of options.............

Ethel's brother ("H. Cooper, Brother, of 3 East View, Peaslake") was informant on her death certificate and I see that there are some Coopers in and around the area, though attempts to get them on the telephone have proved fruitless thus far. I'll keep trying as one may be the relative (nephew) Cintara mentioned in her/his posts, and may have some information.

I can't find the birth certificate copy for Ethel in 1874........too many bits of paper!