Margaret Robb / Dalbeths Girl School

[Duffy11]

Hi!!

Sorry I've not been replying back as had decided to take a wee break as have an interview next week so had to catch up with my sketches to make sure it's all presentable!

Wow, well I've been reading all of your messages and really thankful that someone out there is helping me with this as it's been a tough ride.. now where do i start to answer these messages! I've had to print them to read them while I respond so I remember what I need to answer back to them!

Right, I'll go through these and answer them

The information of Margaret J Robb is correct, she was married to a John Borthwick and she died from breast cancer that spread at the age of 41. But not solid that it's her still, I have her mother and fathers- Isabella Robb who died of heart attack at 80 years of age. Father's name was William Robb.

Now if this is her- she'd have been 15 when she'd given birth, pregnant at 14. Which I wouldn't cross out as an possibility as my dad has sort of an indian look and there's no father listed on the details.

Medical Archives do not have anything, as when I went to Mitchell Library, there was a woman from NHS archives who looked through all hospitals for Margaret Robb and on the system - there was nothing that came up and said that this birth could have been taken place at home. What she said was the stobhill, nothing and checked all other hosps, even looked at private ones that I'm not allowed to look into just to check incase she did find something and I'd have to apply for them. But nothing.

Gerry - I read your messages, I certainly learned alot which made me wonder and course determined not to give up. What crossed my mind is that Magdalen Laundry for young mothers, but on the adoption papers it looks like my dad was given straight over more or less at 3 weeks old to his new parents. This is one of the things that I have a gut feeling something is wrong. I don't know what it is and cannot put my finger on it.

I have been to the Archdiocese and they were shifty about it, they were careful with what they were saying and said they have taken their hands off it and cora now takes the head of the good shepherd. I have been to the cora in bishopton and all i have is these nun's phone numbers but because I am deaf, they wouldn't understand the typetalk relay that I use (typing through to an operator to translate what I say to a person over the phone) so it's quite difficult and I'm not willing to have my mother do these for me as it's a bit too personal as she did phone london's convent, newcastle and we ended up with an address in manchester which just passing on to ask that nun, ask the other nun and it's not that easy, I just need to be there myself and talk to them myself which is alot easier but hey, dundee to england is a long way and I might have to if I end up with nothing to play with!

Edinburgh is worth a go, I've emailed them again as they were the ones who passed my father's adoption papers to court for me to get an approval.

 The reference on Dalbeth Laundry you gave me, that was a new information as never knew about that- was an interesting read. Thanks!

bear with me while I continue this... as don't want this to fault on me.. so want to save everything I want to put down while I continue.........

[Duffy11]

As I go on...

I won't cross out any potentional information, especailly the Margaret Josephine Robb which on her birth certificate states her middle name as Joseph shown on the scotland's people search. I have to also remember that saying ther father's name is William, so is my father's adopted father.  if it's not her, maybe the potentional another Margaret Joseph Robb- that her father's name maybe Joseph? Though not crossing out anything.

Having a look on my father's birth certificate and the consent that Margaret Robb gave her consent to adoption, both signature is totally different, the consent looked like someone possibly younger or not educated as known back in those days everyone has a writing sheet to write perfectly in standards. I'd say that the signature on the consent is her own and the birth certificate was written by someone who would be registering the birth - the Dundee library who confirmed who Margaret J Robb, given that she got married to a John Borthwick and a daughter- I should have checked the signatures.

And again what's playing my mind was the distances of all.. given that when Gerry showed me the reference link he found, the man there said transport wasn't very good as I'd be aware back in those days is quite difficult - thinking about him travelling to Hillington would be a bit of a journey compared now theres moterways and everything all updated.

And that there wasn't much cars about is what I'm aware which is bugging me.. I've tried to see the parts of where stobhill hospital, springburn and the way to go to London road- the old map shows that it's a bit of a way to go unless they did have a car arranged or thinking about what bus services would there be in those days seeing it was just after the war?

Lastly, bugging me is why isn't there anything for 1942 for any such information in Mitchell Library! I noticed some of the stuff I went through such as potentional schools Margaret went to, there was a gap and mitchell library said it could be that they were thrown out to make space or just went missing or of course stolen.

So it's all a bit of a muddle looking at these adoption papers. I wish I had a scanner and show them to you so you may pick something out! Especailly if one can read shorthand as there's one part of the paper I have that has shorthand and so far as many people I've asked cannot read shorthand.

I've emailed National Archives in Edinburgh again, as they were the ones who gave my dads adoption papers to court, now that I've got these, I've emailed to the adoption part, general and legal so hopefully there would be more information that I could find. The only thing I've just got popped into my head that lady in Mitchell Library mentioned try social work archives but I'd have to apply and don't know how difficult this will be as it was difficult enough to get an approval from court as its very rare that they do approve them even if it's medical related.

Mind boggling aswell to think was all this a smooth ride during my father's birth or was margaret really wanting to keep my father as given the dates during of all the court process.. my father was born in july, his birth certificate was done in August the 13th.. and the consent of adoption was the day before.. the 12th. All became official in October. And I'm not sure the legal wordings back in the old days or of any adoption proceedures, a petition to adopt... thinking of petition- is that the normal word to use to get adoption of a child or were they fighting for my dad- given also into account was that his adoptive dad was 49 years of age and his adoptive mother was 47.

And more to it was my dad did find out who he was when he was younger, the priest said to him to leave it be and that he's got his mother and father and thats it. So I don't know as that was one other thing that was bugging me as whether there was mabye a dark secret to it or just saying that to my father as he never did anything about it and that also the adoption papers were never opened since 1942, how did he find out his real name?

Well, I still am not giving up till I get some answers for definate, the only thing I would have to try is finding Margaret Josephine Robb's daughter, Isabella Mary Borthwick or John Borthwick if alive and maybe they can confirm it but how do I find them. That's something worth looking into. Maybe..

Whew! Hope I've answered everything you've said.... :S let me know if haven't.

lil

[gerryfarrell]

Gonna take me a while to take all that info in. I dont think the transport links would have been as good as they are now a days but i know that the trams passed at the door ans seemingly turned about close by, Again a piece of what seemed useless info at the time but the wee woman mentioned that mothers would get off and feed the bairns at the gatehouse while waiting on the trams turning.

I know its a bit away and with you being in Dundee a bit of a trek to motherwell but Andrew Nicol of the Scottish catholic archives is doing a presentation at the LFHS night on 14th May. So if you havent got anywhere before then PM me and I will talk to him after the presentation and see if he can give this any advise.

The problem I see with all this is the The Catholic Church is notorious for keeping things secret and hushed up, (Priests sent to the missions etc) Nuns and these laundries were seen in their day as strict and used to cleanse the soul of sin, now a days i think we call it cruelty.
(No offence meant what so ever to any catholics)

Gerry

[Duffy11]

That would be great to speak with Andrew Nicol of the Scottish catholic archives, even If I do get something before then, still would be useful to get as much information gathered, I'm going to do up a folder and gather all information together into sections as I've got printouts most of the information I've seen and still take them into account.

I do agree with you about the last part of how this was seen into. Just feels strange because you learn about other religion from all over the world but this is one I have never come across before and my family are catholics but I don't go to church, but you learn these in school aswell and just one part that was never tought for history as I think it's quite important for our generations to see and know about. But that's my own opinion. Not sure if any would agree. 

lillias

[MonicaL]

Gerry, that's sounds a good plan forward I think  The whole nature of adoptions is based on confidentiality and protection of identity of the birth mother. Official adoptions of this period are still very hard to unravel, coupled with the RC angle and their own adoption procedures further complicates matters. The only realistic hope I think of finding a connection to the Margaret J born in 1927 is finding some records for Dalbeth Girls Home and I'm not sure whether the Church even over 60 years later would be prepared to release this information but this is speculation on my part and it would be great Gerry if you could get feedback on this aspect from the Archivist.

In respect of earlier comments of how Margaret Robb's birth entry was indexed in 1927 (as Margaret Joseph Robb) it is simply because of the number of characters that can be shown on the index. To have put Josephine, as is clear from her actual entry, could have exceeded the maximum number of letters that can be displayed on the index.

Also, from the dates we now have. I would guess that the pregnant girls that were sent to the Home did so with the understanding (and likely parents' intentions) of having the babies adopted immediately after birth. Adoptive families are likely to have already been in the wings prior to babies' births. Solicitors would also be ready to begin the adoption process immediately after the births. Young William looks to have been with his new adoptive parents within 4 weeks of his birth (if not earlier?). Likely also that his adoptive parents may well have organised William's baptism given his age.

The referece to 'Petition to Adopt' is at its simplest an application to the Courts for adoption. Similarly, the Petitioner's Solicitor, would have been responsible for acting on behalf of the prospective adoptive parents through the legal adoption court process I believe.

From what you have said Lil, your father's adoptive parents look to have told him what his birth name was. This is not uncommon when children/adults find out that they are adopted and begin to ask lots of questions. Whether he knew more than would be impossible for you to guess.

Lil, I get the feeling that with your dedication to try and arrive at the facts, if anyone can break through these invisible walls you can 

Monica

[MonicaL]

Lil

What is 'CORA' 

Monica

[sancti]

Bear in mind that 1942 was in the middle of the war, I don't know what the transport situation would have been like. With Glasgow and Clydebank being the targets of German bombers I would have thought that Dalbeth would have had a facility for the girls to give birth there. It does seem strange that she gave birth in Stobhill if living at Dalbeth.

[KirstyG]

It is possible that she was visiting family in the area when she went into labour. That might explain why she was so far from Dalbeth. Do we know what day of the week William was born?


Monica I think Cora might be this:
http://www.coralearning.org.uk/

or this:
"The Cora Foundation, an Agency of the Catholic Bishops' Conference of Scotland, is the body which provides support and co-ordinated services to the Boards of Managers of Saint Mary's Kenmure, St. John's, Springboig, as well as the Good Shepherd Centre and St. Philip's." from the Scottish Catholic Media Office.

[MonicaL]

Thanks for that Kirsty 

Monica

PS William was born a Monday (just checked the calendar for that year!)