John BARNES & Elizabeth King ELLEN & family

[robots]

Fred

While I don't have a direct connection to the Barnes tree (John Barnes' wife was a great great grand aunt of mine), I was interested in all the information here and got specially intrigued by the problem you identified with George Barnes place of birth and the presumed date of arrival.

After investigating it and probably covering all the research sources you did, I'm sorry to say I'm no nearer in resolving the puzzle.  I'd be very surprised if the NSW BDM record is wrong. Even though spelling issues do arise, this doesn't look like one. I also did a quick check for a UK birth record. Nothing there. So this looks to be correct. I also checked Trove for a birth notice but nothing there I could find.

Is it possible his birth was not registered in UK?  Very unlikely I would have thought.

We know how difficult immigration records can be to research and I only found the the same possibilities you did. But have you tried to see if there is a UK emigration record?  There could be a spelling issue here too which only luck will help to track down.

Regarding the apparent conflicts of DOB with his older brothers, I don't have a problem with that. Other records show the correct DOBs and I think you might be confusing dates of baptism.

Ian

[fred2derf]

Hello Ian,

The baptism record for George at St Andrews Scots Church 27 September 1853 has his date of birth but no place of birth.  About all I can say is that a Barnes family arrived in 1841 and that no birth reg can be found in England so it's still up in the air.

Re his older brothers I have not been able to verify the date of births in IGI that were privately submitted records. All I have in my tree are the extracted baptism records such as this one for John Frederick:

c. 12 Nov 1837  Saint Dunstan, Stepney, London, England
parents - John & Elizabeth King 

King is a middle name.

Regards,

Fred

[robots]

Hi Fred

William John BARNES b 13/12/1834 Middlesex  d 16/10/1841 Sydney
Thomas Alfred BARNES b 17/4/1835 Middlesex
John Frederick BARNES b 26/9/1837 Middlesex
Elizabeth Jane BARNES b 9/1/1939 England
Mary Ellen BARNES b 9/1/1839 England - twins
George Robert BARNES b 31/1/1840 Sydney ?

Elizabeth might have used 'King' as a middle name but her parents were Thomas ELLEN and Mary Elizabeth KING who were my 3rd great grandparents.  She was the sister of Jane Selina CAMPBELL (nee ELLEN) who arrived in Sydney on 10/5/1863 with her children.  As Jane came on an Assisted Passage, she needed a sponsor.  Two independent records confirm she was met on arrival in Sydney by George Barnes.  My guess is that George's mother Elizabeth was the true sponsor having encouraged her younger sister to emigrate after the death of her husband in London.

Hope this helps to clear up some things.

Ian

[bedfordshire boy]

William John, Thomas Alfred, and John Frederick were all baptised at St Dunstan Stepney on 12 Nov 1837, with nothing in the baptism register to indicate their dates of birth. Presumably these have been obtained from Australian records?

It wasn't merely the case that Elizabeth ELLEN might have used King as her middle name. She was actually baptised as Elizabeth King ELLEN, and married and signed as such as well.

Is it possible his birth was not registered in UK?  Very unlikely I would have thought.

Very likely in fact. In the early days of civil registration, which started in 1837, many births weren't registered. I can't see registrations for Elizabeth Jane and Mary Ellen either. But if George was born in Australia his birth wouldn't have been recorded in England.

David

[robots]

Hi Fred

Then haven't you answered your own question? Viz he was born in UK but registered in Australia? His NSW birth certificate should surely confirm it one way or the other.

What i meant was: Why couldn't Elizabeth be using the name King as a double surname, viz King-Ellen? Her mother seems by some records to have retained her maiden name after her marriage.

Ian

[bedfordshire boy]

I didn't ask any questions! Surely Fred's valid point is that he has shipping records for the family arriving in 1841 and George's birth is recorded in Australia in 1840, which is a contradiction.

[robots]

I thought it was Fred that I had been exchanging with. Sorry.

I think we agree on the apparent contradiction originally posed by Fred.  Can't we also agree that a possible resolution is that George was born in Middlesex but registered in NSW? The NSW birth certificate should hopefully verify that.

Ian

[bedfordshire boy]

He could have been born in London, or on board ship, or in NSW. Whichever one it was it doesn't get over the problem as to how his birth was registered in Australia before the apparent arrival of his family.  Something doesn't add up, and I can't work out what it is!

[robots]

Unless you've seen the birth certificate which indicates an actual dd/mm/yyyy of registration in 1840, then I'm not sure you can be absolutely positive of the inconsistency. It certainly looks irreconcilable  but I'd want to see the birth certificate to verify it one way or the other. The registration code indicates 1840 which would mean birth in 1840 (or 1839) and that would be good enough for me - normally. If it proves to be in 1840 then (unless the NSW BDM was in the practice of backdating!), then we have to reject the evidence (which is not absolute) that the family arrived in 1841 - despite no alternatives appearing to exist.