John BARNES & Elizabeth King ELLEN & family

[fred2derf]

John BARNES  b. 27 Jun 1812  Bletsoe, Bedford  ? (Privately submited IGI) - parents Joseph & Elizabeth PICKERING  ??

  married on 14 Jul 1833 St Antholin, Budge Row, London (extracted IGI)

Elizabeth King ELLEN  c. 4 Jan 1803  Mustons Lane Independent Church in Shaftesbury, Dorset  - parents Thomas ELLEN & Mary Elizabeth KING

Children:

Thomas Alfred  b. ?  c. 12 Nov 1837  St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex
John Frederick  b. ?  c. 12 Nov 1837  St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex
a third son?   b.  c. 12 Nov 1837  St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex
Elizabeth Jane  b. 9 Jan 1839  ?
Mary Ellen  b. 9 Jan 1839  ?
George Robert  b. 31 Jan 1840  ?

A baptism reg in NSW, Australia:
Reg# V18407324 45C/1840  BARNES  GEORGE R   JOHN   ELIZABETH K

John and Elizabeth supposedly arrived in NSW on 5 Apr 1841 on the 'Abbotsford' from London with 3 sons.

So many things don't add up. Is Thomas the first born so long after the marriage? Where was George Robert born?   Is the third son William John?

Are John's parents Joseph and Elizabeth PICKERING?

John is said to have four siblings and two or three also came to Australia, with John and his family or separately:

Joseph Samuel BARNES  b. abt 1824  Bedford ?  d. 16 July 1878  Wagga Wagga, NSW  - shot by a bush ranger - no death certificate because there was an inquest - court case.

Susannah BARNES  b. 3 Dec 1815 in Bletsoe, Bedford  d. NSW

Elizabeth BARNES  b. abt 1810 ?  did she also go to Australia ?

I am aware that the names John and Joseph BARNES are very common in England.

I'd appreciate some help with this family.

Thanks.

Fred

[tazzie]

  Hi Fred....

  There is also another submitted entry for John Barnes who married Elizabeth Ellen as being born Cornwall 1812 and him dying in 1863 NSW  Murrumburrah.

  If you have a look on Ancestry in the family tree sections there are trees relating to this family .
 One has Thomas Alfred being born in Padstow in 1836. This tree was only updated in March this year.

  Hopefully someone may have Blestoe records as IGI on has extracted records to 1812 on the site .

                   Tazzie

[fred2derf]

Hello tazzie,

Thanks. Yes, I hope someone can help out with the Bletsoe BARNES from the Bishop's Transcripts for Bletsoe 1602-1861.

Yes I have seen the born in Cornwall one and this one too:

John BARNES  b. 27 Jun 1812  Bletsoe, Bedford, England  d. 30 Aug 1863 - parents Joseph & Elizabeth PICKERING (privately submitted IGI)

There are so many John BARNES and so many privately submitted entries without sources that is may be impossible to ever be certain that anyone has the right one in their tree.

The father of the Thomas BARNES born in NSW in 1836 is listed as being Thomas on the birth reg.

I'm not in Sydney so I can't view any shipping reels. A Mr Barnes & family arrived in NSW on 5 Apr 1841 on the 'Abbotsford'.

Regards,

Fred

[bedfordshire boy]

There’s a marriage at Bletsoe on 16 Oct 1809 between Joseph Barns and Elizabeth Infield, but no subsequent baptisms, at least up to 1812 when the extracted entries on the cease. Elizabeth Infield appears to have been baptised in Bletsoe in 1789. The member submission to which you refer has a birth date, rather than a baptism date, so doesn’t appear to have been taken from the parish register. If a baptism took place before 1813 it should be on the IGI – the IGI entries for Bletsoe are taken from the transcript, which is an amalgam of the parish register and the bishop’s transcript.

Virtually all of Beds baptisms and marriages pre 1813 have been extracted onto the IGI. There’s no marriage of a John Barnes to Elizabeth Pickering. For events subsequent to 1812 there’s no transcript, other than the IGI, BVRI and NBI; you need to look at the microfilm which can be ordered from and viewed at your nearest LDS Family History Centre. The member submission looks to me as though it’s suspect.

The third son baptised at Stepney on 12 Nov 1737 was William John Barnes, which is an extracted entry on the IGI. The fact that three sons were baptised together would imply that one or probably more were late baptisms, which would explain the gap between 1833 and 1837.

Unless there are records in Australia, which presumably is where the birth date and birthplace Bletsoe for John come from, any of the John Barnes born c1812 could be the one who emigrated.

David

[fred2derf]

Hello David,

Thank you very much.  I am wondering if all the other researchers of this family found it impossible to prove anything so desperate for a 'complete' tree they 'invented' something. I wonder where Elizabeth PICKERING came from?  Possibly a connection to a BARNES family in Cornwall?

A view of all the shipping reels with a BARNES on it is needed. I'm in SE Asia so I can't do that nor can I visit a FHC. One of the problems is that there is no death certificate in NSW for one of the BARNES. His death was the subject of a court case. His date of death is known from the court documents and his headstone.

Details from a marriage certificate which lists the witnesses establishes that John BARNES  spouse of Elizabeth ELLEN and Joseph Samuel were brothers. Susannah who also went to NSW is believed to be a sibling. I've not seen a copy of her death certificate and I don't know of any researcher who has a copy of it either.

You are correct in saying it may be very difficult to prove other than 'Joseph and Elizabeth' who the parents of these three are. It seems people are copying stuff from 'you know where' and the errors are spreading.

This may remain a brick wall.

Regards,

Fred

[fred2derf]

Hello David,

I'm trying to separate fact from fiction, more exactly listing events that have some source.

John BARNES  b. ?  where ?  d. 30 Aug 1863  NSW, Australia

Death Reg# 6635/1863  BARNES  JOHN   JOSEPH   ELIZABETH   BURRANGONG
 
I don't know of anyone yet who has a copy of that death certificate so I can't say if there is any more information re his parents other than 'Joseph & Elizabeth.'

  married on 14 Jul 1833 St Antholin, Budge Row, London (extracted IGI)

Elizabeth King ELLEN  c. 4 Jan 1803  Mustons Lane Independent Church in Shaftesbury, Dorset  - parents Thomas ELLEN & Mary Elizabeth KING

Children:

Thomas Alfred  b. ?  c. 12 Nov 1837  St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex  d. 20 Oct 1902  Murrumburrah, NSW

John Frederick  b. ?  c. 12 Nov 1837  St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex  d.  NSW ?

William John   b.  ?  c. 12 Nov 1837  St Dunstan's Stepney, Middlesex  d. England before family travelled or died in NSW, perhaps in 1841??

George Robert  b. ?  c. 1840  NSW  d. 24 May 1920 Murrumburrah, NSW

A Mr Barnes & family arrived in NSW on 5 Apr 1841 on the 'Abbotsford' from London. But we don't know anything more about that family yet. Also, it does not fit in with the following:

A baptism reg in NSW, Australia:

Reg# V18407324 45C/1840  BARNES  GEORGE R   JOHN   ELIZABETH K

So the family we are tracing didn't arrive in 1841. The next question is was George Robert born in England and baptised in NSW or was he born in NSW? If the story of 3 sons arriving is correct then either George Robert or William John was the 3rd one.
William John did die young but there are way too many deaths of 'William Barnes' in FreeBMD and in NSW BMD to help us find where and when he died. I think it's more likely William John was the 3rd one and that he died in NSW. Then George Robert was born in NSW. Then another son named William John.

A baptism reg in NSW, Australia:

Reg# V18427325 45C/1842  BARNES  WILLIAM J   JOHN   ELIZABETH K


I hope someone is able to search the shipping records between 12 Nov 1837 and Dec 1840 for John and Elizabeth and 3 sons + others?

This seems too early but is the only Susannah I've found so far:

London to Port Jackson NSW
Arrival Date 11 Aug 1833
'Bussorah Merchant'
Susanna Barnes born abt 1813
also an Elizabeth Barnes same ship Born abt 1811

Joseph Samuel  b. ?  c. ?  d. 16 July 1878  Wagga Wagga, NSW  No death certificate because his death was the subject of a court case.

He married on 6 Jun 1848 in NSW. He was single so it's not him in 1841 either.
Joseph and his spouse were witnesses at the marriage in 1866 of his nephew Thomas Alfred to his spouse's younger sister.

Regards,

Fred

[johnP-bedford]

morning all,

I have just had a contact on Genes Reunited that says she has the death certificate of John Barnes that confirms he was born 1812 Bletsoe to Joseph Barnes & Elizabeth Pickering. I have sent her a link to this topic - so perhaps we'll hear back.

Also I've just sent a quick email to the Beds Archives to see if they'll check out the baptisms on Bletsoe PR 1813 onwards for any children of a John & Elizabeth Barnes. Perhaps they'll be kind and do it for free !. I'll keep you posted. There is no baptism in the Bletsoe PR transript for John Barnes in 1812 - perhaps they did him later.

regards John

[fred2derf]

Hello John,

Thank you very much. That's very interesting. The researchers who copied that bit about 1812 and Elizabeth PICKERING certainly didn't bother taking any source info with them, that's assuming it was provided on the original.

I'm still hoping someone has access to some info from the shipping records. John and his family, brother Joseph and Susannah probably arrived separately.

Regards,

Fred

[johnP-bedford]

Hello,   In response to my email to the Beds Archives, my good mate Trevor tells me that in future all enquiries would be chageable. Since 1st April the Beds Archives is now managed by the new unitarian council  of Borough + County councils (to whom I pay my councils tax).. anyway this one is a freebie  -  re. Bletsoe baptism lookup.....

The only baptism I have come across is that of Susanna Barnes, daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth, baptised at Bletsoe on 3rd December 1815.
 
.... and he has noticed ,,,....

There is a strange entry on the IGI of a baptism, at Bletsoe, of John Barnes on 27th June 1812. I am sure that you have come across this. But where the source came from or who entered it is not shown. It also records the parents as Joseph Barnes and Elizabeth Pickering, not Infield. It is not shown in the parish register either. It's a mystery.

... so the John Barnes born/baptised 1812 is imaginary ...

regards John

PS - I still await a response from my Genes Reunited contact ...

& PPS  how to get a 11+minute  Bob Dylan classic truncated into less than 3 munutes, did they miss some verses out ?  ...see ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxq-rTGxpyQ&feature=related