William Hill of Newcastle

[kat2004]

Having a nightmare tracing my gggg grandfather! He is William Hill. a french polisher, of Thornton St. This information is on his son John's marriage certificate for 1874. John lives in South Shields but was born at Newcastle. I traced John's birth certificate but im not 100% sure ive got the right one. His father is a labourer in 1854, of Silver st Newcastle. Ive tried in vain to locate John and William on census for 1871 but cant find them together.

has anyone any suggestions how to knock down my brick wall?

[Paul E]

Hi Kat

Do you have any info from later censuses that will help with a search?
Any estimated years of birth?

best wishes

Paul

[kat2004]

Hi Paul,
I have John on 1901,1891 and 1881 census at Hebburn,parish of Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow. John was born, according to the census' and his marriage cert, in 1854 at Newcastle. I have several John Hill's on 1871 census, one an orphan, but none living with his father who is WIlliam. And I just cant seem to find a William who fits in either.

When i ordered Johns birth cert. there were two John Hill born that year in Newcastle, and only one with a father called William so I thought I was on the right track but now im not sure. On this cert. John's mother is called Mary Hill formerly Campbell, and the family live at Silver st Newcastle.  So really I could do with looking on the 1861 census for them.

If William died (although it doesnt say he's deceased on John's marriage cert.) then logic would have John living with his mother Mary, but I cant match that on the census' either.
 ARRGGHHH!!!!!!

[Paul E]

Hi Kat

Your marriage cert from 1874 would normally include a reference to John's father being deceased, if this was the case.  So we must assume he might still be alive in 1871.

We don't know if William had any other children, but if John was 1st then a fair bet for a birth year would be between 1828 and 1834.

A search of 1871 reveals 8 William Hills living in Newcastle who are household heads.  A possible candidate for your William is:

WH aged 42, born Scotland, Shoemaker, wife MARY, but their eldest resident sons are aged 19 and  17 and shown as born in Scotland - ie this family was in Scotland around 1854, unless they moved very shortly to Newcastle thereafter (or the son's age is slightly out).  There is then a gap of 5 years before the next child, aged 12, is shown.  We'd have to consider this a possibility for your William, even if occupation doesn't match.  And of course, if you have Mary CAMPBELL, that's a fine Scots name!

As for John, I agree that the 16 year old orphan seems unlikely.
But if we discount the William Hill above, it might be all you have.

There are three or four deaths of William Hills in Newcastle showing on freebmd, which would be age-consistent with being of married age in 1854, as you may have found, but we can't know, without the certificates, whether any of these are yours.

My own instinct is that John was not at home aged 17, and that he might be hiding under a mistranscription somewhere - I've had too many of these to rule them out!  He may have lied about his age for some reason. 

I wondered whether John might have other siblings that were with him on later censuses?


best wishes

Paul

[kat2004]

Thanks paul,
There are no siblings living with John on later census', just his wife and children. His first born girl is called Mary Jane which would indicate that she could be named after John's mother.

I agree, I dont think John was at home on census night. The only thing I have to go on with William is that he was french polisher on Johns marriage cert.  I would love for my birth cert. to be correct, funny thing is we already have Campbells in a different line of our tree! Could you tell me what the name of the 12 year old is on your details?

Do you know if there is a 1861 Census available for Newcastle and Durham? John's wife is also proving to be a bit of a problem. Her name is Benieness Ingles Wood B1855, father Matthew Wood of Hebburn South Shields. She was born in Hebburn apparently but I cant find a birth cert. or entry on the 1871 census for her or her father. He is listed as a carpenter on the marriage cert.
Than you for your time and help, I wish these ancestors would leave better clues!!!

Best Wishes,
Kat

[Paul E]

Hi Kat

Some members on Rootschat will have access to Newcastle 1861 so it may be best posting a specific thread with the title 'William Hill, Newcastle, 1861 and 1871'.

What I would suggest is posting the full details of your 1901 / 1891 and 1881 findings and let people work backwards from there.


Here's the 1871 details you wanted:

HILL, at 4 No 1 Court, St James
William, Head, 42, Shoemaker, Scotland
Mary, Wife, 36, (looks like) Sower, Scotland
Michael, Son, 19, Wireworker, Scotland
David, Son, 17, Painter or Printer, Scotland
Charlotte, Daur, 12,  Scholar, N-u-T
William, Son, 9, Scholar, N-u-T
Ellen, Daur, 7, Scholar, N-u-T
Charles, Son, 4, Scholar, N-u-T
John, Son, 2, N-u-T


A point re the 16 year old orphan John that's worth pondering on however - he's in a household which includes 4 joiners!

Sorry can't be more helpful

Paul

[GERC]

Hi Kat
I wonder if you have made any progress with your tree since the last posting which was quite some time ago. I was looking for Ingels in my tree and I came across an entry on the 1851 census in South Shields for a Bennes IngELs. She was aged 46 and a mariners wife and was born in Scotland. She was a lodger so her husband was obviously away at sea. There is then a death registered for Benenus Carr IngLEs in the June quarter of 1857 again South Shields. On the 1861 census is a mariner William IngLEs aged 61 a widower. He was born in Haddington, Dunbar, Scotland.
This doesn't help you at all with your John Hill and his wife does it but as she was born in South Shields there must obviously be a connection.
Lyn