Author Topic: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.  (Read 12265 times)

Offline emmsthheight

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Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« on: Tuesday 17 March 09 23:46 GMT (UK) »
Hi

I'm hoping some wise Rootschatters may be able to help us.

We have Richard Carruthers artist and merchant, and brothers William, Isaac and possibly John, went out to Portugal and Brazil early 19C.

They founded a company Carruthers & Co. with various partners includig de Souza and del Castro.

There is a company started in Lancashire in Manchester and Liverpool - Carruthers with various partners.

I'd really appreciate it if anyone can help with precisely what they were doing, who was runnig it, where they were living, any family information etc.

It looks like exporting, they had an address in King Street and one in Spring Gardens Manchester.

There may be a death for William in Lisbon.  There is a Widow Carruthers born Portugal with children born Brazil on the census 1861 and a couple more odd entries but nothing conclusive or complete.  I've odd snippets from Google books too, but nothing in the areas I've given.

Best wishes

Emms
Hoey : Louth, Dublin, Lancashire,
Diggle: Pendleton Lancashire,
Stickley: Dorset, Lancashire
Bockmann, Boedemann etc Artist, Europe and London

English Merchants in Brazil and Portugal especially Carruthers family

1st Battalion Connaught rangers WW1

Website:  Look  out for new website coming soon to replace Fells and Seas

Offline andrewalston

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 18 March 09 08:25 GMT (UK) »
The London Gazette has various mentions of business dealings (free online).

A quick search there shows a liquidation in 1878 of "Carruthers Brothers", wine merchants, metioning William, Isaac & James Carruthers, and an announcement in 1850 of the dissolution of a Partnership mentioning de Castro & de Souza on the retirement of Richard Carruthers.
Looking at ALSTON in south Ribble area, ALSTEAD and DONBAVAND/DUNBABIN etc. everywhere, HOWCROFT and MARSH in Bolton and Westhoughton, PICKERING in the Whitehaven area.

Census information is Crown Copyright. See www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for details.

Offline andrewalston

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 18 March 09 08:53 GMT (UK) »
A Google for "carruthers de castro" as mentioned in the partnership brings up an entry in Google Books which says the firm were into banking.

The same book seems to mention nearly all the people in the partnership. It is probably worth a deeper read.
Looking at ALSTON in south Ribble area, ALSTEAD and DONBAVAND/DUNBABIN etc. everywhere, HOWCROFT and MARSH in Bolton and Westhoughton, PICKERING in the Whitehaven area.

Census information is Crown Copyright. See www.nationalarchives.gov.uk for details.

Offline emmsthheight

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 18 March 09 12:19 GMT (UK) »
Thank you Andrew.  That's interesting.  Be;ieve it or not I've done one heck of a lot of Googling.  I had seen bits on Google about the banking, but I'm trying to get where they fit in.

I've not got the bit about wine, though, and didn't have any real connection to Isaac.  there seems to be a bit of luck with Googling.  I know they add all the time.  I've got two boxes of odd snippets with no substantial facts!

This is a real move on though, mentioning all three.  We know they were into all sortds but much seems to be blown up in stories about  the de Souza character who is evidently a legend over there and they conflict.  The main one being cotton etc.

This entry on wine is especially interesting as it involves all three, it's a hard business fact, and the opossible death for William mentions him as a wine merchant.  Rootschat does it again!  Thank you!

The Gazette is evidently one way to go.  I have some from Google and from 19C Newspapers, but I guess they wont all be on there if I'd thought!

Thank you again!

Best wishes

Emms
Hoey : Louth, Dublin, Lancashire,
Diggle: Pendleton Lancashire,
Stickley: Dorset, Lancashire
Bockmann, Boedemann etc Artist, Europe and London

English Merchants in Brazil and Portugal especially Carruthers family

1st Battalion Connaught rangers WW1

Website:  Look  out for new website coming soon to replace Fells and Seas


Offline emmsthheight

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 18 March 09 17:56 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Just a little note to say Thank You! again Andrew.  I had a good root on the Gazette archives :

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk

earlier on and got a load of stuff that hadn't come up on Google books or 19C newspapers.

There's a full report on the split of the partnership and I've also talen about twenty other incidents off.

If anyone hasn't used this resource you can search all 19th and 20thC issues of London Gazette and some other local versions. 

Main uses are Bankrupts and army reports from the wars but there are all sorts including creditors to deceased - which could give a clue to a death, some Tythe applotments -some for Cumbria came up, and you name it!

So if you are at a brick wall you've nothing to lose, and it's free including scans of the original!

By the way, if you've not used it for while like me, givew it a go because there's loads more stuff on and it's infinitely faster.

Best wishes to all.

Emms
Hoey : Louth, Dublin, Lancashire,
Diggle: Pendleton Lancashire,
Stickley: Dorset, Lancashire
Bockmann, Boedemann etc Artist, Europe and London

English Merchants in Brazil and Portugal especially Carruthers family

1st Battalion Connaught rangers WW1

Website:  Look  out for new website coming soon to replace Fells and Seas

Offline davidships

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 25 March 09 02:33 GMT (UK) »
Although I am still exploring one or other other lines, here's what I have on the Brazilian connection - there is certainly some "unconventional behaviour" here!

Starting with from the 1871/1881 census there seem to be two family groups with children born in Brazil:

1) The Portuguese-born Maria A de A Carruthers, widow of Richard (who must have died before 1871)  living in Chorlton, Lancs in 1871 with three Brazilian-born children, Adelaide (1847), Isaac (1852) and James (1853); of these, the two youngest are still living with their mother a decade later in Fulham (perhaps she moved to provide a base as they developed their careers in London as artist and shipping clerk respectively; I suppose that Adelaide had married by then.  There was also a Brazilian-born mechanical engineer Richard Carruthers (1848) in Chorlton in 1871 who was living in the same street, but as a lodger with retired wine merchant William Payant - whose son was he? 

2) In Liverpool was a Mary N Carruthers "widow of chandler" and with her were Brazilian-born Conrad J (1855, brass finisher), William A (1857, cabinet maker) and Charles J (1859, scholar).  For the reasons below, it may well be that Mary Carruthers was not their mother - or perhaps only of Conrad.

I have failed to find any records at all of the births of the children of Richard and Maria - none of them were registered with consuls in Brazil and they do not appear in the baptismal registers of Christ Church, the English church in Rio de Janeiro.  I do know, however from consular correspondence in the National Archives that there was a merchant Richard Carruthers in Rio de Janeiro at least between 1825 and 1834, but he may have moved to another city after that.

William Carruthers however certainly raised a family in Rio de Janeiro.  Christ Church baptismal registers records three:

7/12/1856 William Augustus Carruthers, born 27/10/1856
parents William Carruthers (clerk) and Margaret Zimmer

30/10/1858 Charles John Carruthers, born 5/10/1858
parents William (mercantile clerk) and Anna Margaret Carruthers

21/2/1861 Mary Margaret, born 16/1/1861
parents William (mercantile clerk) and Anna Margaret Carruthers

Interesting that first two were born out of wedlock.  And this is confirmed by a marriage on 30/10/1858 (the very day of the baptism of Charles):
William Carruthers of Carlisle, bachelor             
Anna Margaret Zimmer of Niderbeisen[?], Germany, spinster [in her signature looks like "Margaretkes" (witnesses were non-family)]

It seems unlikely that Anna Margaret Zimmer would have been transformed into the Cumberland-born Mary N Carruthers by the 1871 census.  I suspect that the boys were in England learning trades/at school and living with an aunt while 10-year-old Mary stayed in Brazil with her mother.

On 8/7/1881 Charles John Carruthers married another German, Anna Seidemann (born about 1857) at Christ Church, Rio de Janeiro. 

However six years earlier, the youngest, Mary Ann Margaret, married 35-year-old Swedish engineer Axel Rudolf Frick on 18/1/1875 just two days after her 14th birthday.  And the reason is clear - just three months later on 23/4/1875 they had a daughter Anna Amy Nancy Frick, also baptised at Christ Church.

Both of these marriages were registered with the British Consul in Rio de Janeiro.

Whether Conrad was a product of the same Carruthers/Zimmer union is not known, indeed he may not have been born in Rio de Janeiro.

I have brief records of a couple of strays that may not be connected to the same family.  In 1825 there was a resident in Pernambuco (Recife) named George A Carruthers (this may be the George Agnew Carruthers, attorney, referenced in the London Gazette 27 June 1815, p1253).   And in the same city the marriage of Margaret Carruthers and José Maria da Conceição was registered at the British consulate in the early 1860s.

There do not seem to be any Carruthers deaths registered by British consuls in Brazil.  Unfortunately I do not yet have copies of the Christ Church, Rio de Janeiro burial registers after 1861.


Well, that's it for now - I'll add any further tidbits that emerge.

David

Offline emmsthheight

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 25 March 09 13:36 GMT (UK) »
David, you are an absolute amazing star! 

Without you we would have absolutely none of this apart from a couple of titbits.  I'm limited really to what I can find on the web.

I also really appreciate you using your background knowledge into use.  Even the history professionals I know have very limited knowledge in this area.  I am realising certain patterns are arising, but I don't have the knowledge even when the odd Brazilian born arises to put it to any use at all as I'm so wary of drawing spurious conclusions fropm the odd coincidence.  Your wealth of knowledge has made such a difference.

We did have the two Lancashire censuses but that's all.

There are a couple of other bits too, but I'll get my notes and put it in another post, as this is getting quite long.

Thank you so much.

Best wishes

Emms, Cumbria.
Hoey : Louth, Dublin, Lancashire,
Diggle: Pendleton Lancashire,
Stickley: Dorset, Lancashire
Bockmann, Boedemann etc Artist, Europe and London

English Merchants in Brazil and Portugal especially Carruthers family

1st Battalion Connaught rangers WW1

Website:  Look  out for new website coming soon to replace Fells and Seas

Offline emmsthheight

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 25 March 09 14:18 GMT (UK) »
David

The other major bits I have are these:

I had the census for Maria A A de? Carruthers.

At first I attributed her to William.  Now you give me the sons, that looks right again. A have Marria Augustus A de Carruthers on onee censuis. 

Then I thought Isaac from a comment in Brazil Portuguese? which Icouldn't get the internet to translate from a book, (Google), I now realise it's split and there may be more prose in between.

Richard is a strange case to follow.  He did come back to this country and married eventually and died  about 1876 with one son.

We hve his will.  He already had a son in this country though and we always felt there was more to the story.  I can give you anything we have.

The other prize clue I just received., since I wrote to you.  Also more clues from The Gazette, including re a wine merchants with family.

My main hard fact until your wonderful excerpts from Rio de Janeiro, was an email kinbdly sent by the Chaplain in The English Church in Lisbon.  I knew William had been there, and Richard was there before Rio de Janeiro.

I had a death for a William buried there frrom the Gale, copied from a Lisbon paper.

He found burials and quotes from a stone to the effect:

1. William Carruthers died Cabo Ruiva near Lisbon May 6th 1857 aged 84

2. Isaac Carruthers died Oct 19 1858 aged 46 years. (Burial reg says 1853, so it will be.)

I had nothing on Isaac until now.

William's death fits with the birth we have near Carlisle and also his Brother Richard and other siblings near Carlisle.  Baptised Kirklinton.

I have no conclusive birth for Isaac but there are a couple close by that give only one parent, that seem to fit this date.

I also found a death for Maria Auguste A de, v. late 19C in the last couple of days.  Not in here, but I'll dig it out.

Do you have a definite link between William and Maria Augusta?

Thank you again and best wishes

Emms.
Hoey : Louth, Dublin, Lancashire,
Diggle: Pendleton Lancashire,
Stickley: Dorset, Lancashire
Bockmann, Boedemann etc Artist, Europe and London

English Merchants in Brazil and Portugal especially Carruthers family

1st Battalion Connaught rangers WW1

Website:  Look  out for new website coming soon to replace Fells and Seas

Offline rocio

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Re: Cumberland to Lancashire via Potugal and Brazil - Carruthers & Co.
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 31 July 11 22:11 BST (UK) »
hello, Mary Ann Margaret and Axel Rudolf Frick are my great-grandmother/great-grandfather. They married in Rio de Janeiro on the beach in Russell, as stated on the marriage certificate. She was 14-year-old and He 35-year-old. My grandmother Carlota Elizabeth and my mother Amélia. Amelia died in 1995 but his sister Aurea still lives. I hope I have helped.



However six years earlier, the youngest, Mary Ann Margaret, married 35-year-old Swedish engineer Axel Rudolf Frick on 18/1/1875 just two days after her 14th birthday.  And the reason is clear - just three months later on 23/4/1875 they had a daughter Anna Amy Nancy Frick, also baptised at Christ Church.