Illegitimacy? Bigamy? Advice and Help Needed!

[lolaclare]

Thanks for all that info, Fiona. I have come across that family before when trawling through the censuses. But I discounted it because the James in this family was baptised in Prestwich whereas James Spencer Ashworth consistantly said he was born in Turton or Edgworth. Do you think it is possible that he was born there but christened in Prestwich? There were a couple of months between birth and baptism.

The fact that he went on to marry Mary Ann Walch who lived near Turton led me to believe that he had been born there and had grown up there until moving over to Radcliffe in his 20s. Maybe it is more complicated than that.

If we assume that the Tabitha Fold family are the right family, they must have had some strong links to the Turton area for James to have been born there and for him to have been back there in 1850 to marry Mary Ann Walch and have 2 children born there. Maybe they had relatives living there... I'll have a look at the people living there in 1841 and see if I can link them to Robert Ashworth or Mary Raynor.

One interesting thing to note is that a prominent family living in Turton at the time were called Spencer. They seem to be vicars of the parish church. Maybe James Ashworth took on their surname for some reason.

Incumbents of Turton:
1761~1815   -   Amos Ogden L.L.B., C.L. (Catherine Hall, Cambridge)
1815~1859   -   James Spencer (son-in-law to Amos)....was previously curate to the Duke of Wellington
1859~1879   -   James Ogden King Spencer (son of James)
1879~1899    -   John William Spencer M.A. (St. John's College, Cambridge)
1899~1904            (brother to J.O.K. Spencer, younger son of James

[Maggie.]

Does anyone know if any training or education was required to be a manufacturing chemist?

This is an interesting Australian site with a section on Chemist's qualifications relating to the UK:-

http://www.psa.org.au/site.php?id=773

Quoting from the site -

'By the mid 19th century 'pure' scientific chemists had their own Royal Society of Chemistry. The Society was formed in 1841.  Apparently under the 1868 Pharmacy Act, the term chemist and druggist was used by the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain to denote those who had passed its minor examination, thus meeting the minimum requirement to register as a pharmacist. Commercial chemical and drug merchants not involved with the dispensing or the sale of scheduled poisons were not required to register with the Society, and continued to trade after 1868. Legally they could no longer use the title chemist and druggist'. The title master druggist (as in the trade terms master builder, master baker etc.), was occasionally used by both qualified and unqualified chemists and druggists.'

So I suppose James may, or may not have had training.

Maggie

[FAB Fiona]

Hi Clare

Yup, I think it's very very possible he was actually born in Turton or Edgworth but baptised in Prestwich.  And I think a vicar/rector would be a jolly good person to be named after.  Maybe one of them helped Robert to find work in Radcliffe around the time of his birth and after Whitefield had dried up?  I wonder also if a Spencer relative had a business in the area that James was apprenticed to and that was when he acquired the Spencer bit?  Maybe he ran away from home and they put him up?  Certainly he couldn't abandon the Spencer bit after Mary Ann's death - because of his son John.  

To me it's the fact that Tabitha Fold is in Radcliffe and I was going with the consistent Radcliffe connection (which seems stronger than Turton/Edgworth) and the fact that Whitefield is on the main road between Radcliffe and Prestwich.  Actually Radcliffe's rectory is just up the road and mentioned on the same 1841 page as Robert and Mary & family - you could see if there is an incumbant Spencer connection to this parish too - and Prestwich!  I think Prestwich was probably Roberts 'home' territory to which he felt a strong family connection, (keeping his roots in tact) and as you say would explain the time lags.  When Ann was baptised, they were living in Pilsworth and when Martha was baptised they were in Unsworth, yet traipsed to Prestwich when there were much closer churches - not least, Bury.

I think you really need to explore each member of the 1841 family of Ashworths quite carefully,  and maybe see what they put for their places of birth in later censuses.  btw who were the witnesses at James' marriage to Mary Ann?  And see what that death cert for Mary Ann Ashworth is all about...

Let me know how you get on

Fiona

PS apropos Maggie's info, I'm re-reading Middlemarch at the moment and Dr Lydgate's - the radical one - is keen on the separation of drug supplier and doctor, rather than doctors making up and selling their own concoctions!  A whole new ethics on the chemistry front!

[lolaclare]

btw who were the witnesses at James' marriage to Mary Ann?

Just trying to decipher the witnesses from the marriage cert... they look like Phoebe Lemon and William Haslam. James A. S. and Mary Ann were married at the Maudsley Street Independent Chapel in Bolton and the ceremony was performed by Anthony Bateson who I think was the congregationalist minister from Egerton.

He seems to be lying on the marriage cert about his age as he would have been 18 at the time but he says he was 21. Do you think this was so he could marry without his father's permission? Maybe he did run away and was estranged from his family at this point.

[lolaclare]

I think you really need to explore each member of the 1841 family of Ashworths quite carefully,  and maybe see what they put for their places of birth in later censuses.

I have started to do this and have come across something quite strange and Spencer-related!

I looked for the oldest Ashworth brother John in later censuses and although I couldn't find him in 1851, I found this family in the other censuses that looks like the right one:

1861 - Potters Row, Radcliffe
John Ashworth   Head   Mar   38      Dyer   Lancs, Radcliffe
Ann   Wife   Mar      36   _   Lancs Radcliffe
Robert   Son   Un   17      Dyer of Cotton   Lancs, Radcliffe
Mary Ann   Daur   Un      12   _   Lancs, Radcliffe
Sarah   Daur   Un      6   _   Lancs, Radcliffe
Thomas   Son   Un   2      _   Lancs, Radcliffe

1871 – Back Chapel, Radcliffe
John Ashworth   Head   Mar   48      Farm Labourer   Lancs, Pilkington
Ann   Wife   Mar      47   _   Lancs Radcliffe
Mary Ann   Daur   Un      22   Cotton Weaver   Lancs, Radcliffe
Sarah   Daur   Un      16   Cotton Weaver   Lancs, Radcliffe
Thomas   Son   Un   12      Scholar   Lancs, Radcliffe

1881 – Bowker? Road, Radcliffe
John Ashworth   Head   Mar   58      Chemical Labourer (unemployed)   Lancs, Blackford Bridge
Ann   Wife   Mar      57   _   Lancs Radcliffe
Sarah   Daur   Un      26   Cotton Weaver   Lancs, Radcliffe
Thomas   Son   Un   22      Stamp Maker   Lancs, Radcliffe

I was puzzled as to why I couldn't find them in 1851 as they would already be married by then and their elder two children Robert and Mary Ann would be 7 and 2. Then I think I found them:

1851 – Radcliffe Hall, Radcliffe
John Spencer   Head   Mar   28      Dyer   Lancs, Radcliffe
Ann   Wife   Mar      26   _   Lancs Radcliffe
Robert   Son   Un   7      Scholar   Lancs, Radcliffe
Mary Ann   Daur   Un      2   _   Lancs, Radcliffe
Alice Hughes   Visitor   Mar      25   Weaver   Lancs, Radcliffe
Mary Mitchell Hughes   Visitor Daur   Un      1      Lancs, Little Bolton

Now, am I going crazy or does this look like the same family??? And they are called Spencer.
This is the same census where my ancestor James is living in Radcliffe and calling himself Spencer before changing to Ashworth in 1861.

[andrewalston]

I think that the across-the-board use of the "S" indicates a sort of hyphenated use, which the enumerator has contracted on his sheet.

Whether events get filed under Ashworth, Spencer or Spencer-Ashworth would probably be random.

I've a feeling that there might be quite a bit of cash spent on certs before this is over!

[FAB Fiona]

Gosh Clare!  That was unexpected. 

The 1851 census entry for John & family looks very likely to me.  I had been thinking that as James was a factory hand that maybe he ran away from an apprenticeship in Radcliffe and changed his name to hide himself.  The master person would have had a legal right to pursue him.  I don't know if parental permission was actually required, but a non-marriage clause would have been part of an apprenticeship agreement.

As Andrew indicates you've got a lot of hard-graft research ahead, and some expenditure on certificates - I think you have to look into John's family.  Were his children registered as Spencer or Ashworth too?  I don't have any new insights.  Although two enumerators' shorthand might be responsible for two census errors ie James and John the elder, it doesn't explain the marriage certificate really.  And just around this 1850-51 time.  Something happened between 1841 and the mid-1850s?  Both are living in the area where they were brought up so they can't be hiding as such, loads of people would know who they were.  A pity there isn't much of Radcliffe's historical docs transcribed on the web.

The marriage witnesses don't really reveal anything, although it might be interesting to know whether any other members of James' or Mary Ann's families were also part of that church.

O yes, and I did think it was interesting that John the elder put Pilkington on one of the censuses as his birth place - even further away than Turton!

We await your findings with baited breath...

Fiona

[lolaclare]

On Genuki, it says that Pilkington is 'a township in Prestwich parish' which 'is cut into the three sections of Outwood, Unsworth, and Whitefield or Stand' and 'contains the hamlets of Ringley, Cinderhill, Blackford, and Hollins'. So it kind of makes sense that John Ashworth the elder says he was born there.

In 1871, James S. Ashworth's mother is living with him and she gives her place of birth as 'Pilkington'.

I've managed to trace the sister, Martha Ashworth. She married a man called Edward Fearnly in Bolton in 1846. She gives her birth place variously as Radcliffe (1851), Pilkington (1861), Whitefield (1871), Blackford Bridge (1881) and Prestwich (1901).

In 1861, her mother Mary Ashworth is living with her. Mary Ashworth is down on that census as being 68 and born in Ringley, which does fit with James S. Ashworth's mother in 1871.

[lolaclare]

Ok, now this is very strange. I think I’ve found mother Mary and younger brother Thomas in 1851 living in Turton and called Spencer.

The household is:
Mary Spencer      Head      Widow   49            Lancs, P? L?
Thomas Spencer   Son      Unmar   17   ? Pucker (cotton)   Lancs, Turton
Eden Shepherd      Son in law   Marr   24   Stretcher      Bucks, Bledow

I at first dismissed them because although Thomas was the right age, Mary’s age is slightly off what it should be. But her ages vary quite a lot. In 1841 she was 40, in 1861 she was 68 and in 1871 she was 77.

Just to be certain, I checked to see who Eden Shepherd married. And low and behold, I found the marriage between Mary Ashworth and Eden Shepherd in 1848. So his mother in law must be Mary Ashworth!

It makes sense for Thomas Spencer/Ashworth to be born in Turton as he was born just a couple of years after James.

What I cannot understand is why the whole family seem to be called Spencer around 1851??? They were all Ashworth in 1841 and all seem to be back to Ashworth by 1861. They were definitely calling themselves Ashworth as late as 1848 when Mary married Eden Shepherd. And they were calling themselves Spencer as early as 1850 when James married Mary Ann Walch. The latest reference to their last name being Spencer is in 1852 when James’ son John is born.

Can anyone decipher Mary Spencer’s place of birth from this census?

I think I have also found Eden's wife Mary Shepherd visiting a Taylor family in Radcliffe. The wife of the family she is visiting is called Margaret and was born in Pilkington and could possibly be her sister Margaret Ashworth. They are 2 doors down on the same street as James Spencer.