claims to be german but isn't - why?

[Ditsy]

I have an ancestor Elizabeth who married a Scotsman.  Her Father was German but she was born in Gateshead (1847).  What I can't understand is why her place of birth on 1871, 1891 and 1901 census gives Germany.  Only census that shows correct place is 1881.  I originally thought her husband may have presumed she was born in Germany but on the 1901 census she was living alone as husband had died and still gives place of birth as Germany.  Would there have been any benefits in pretending she was of German origin?  This is really bugging me.  Any suggestions welcome.

[Michael Dixon]

Ditsy,

I suggest that by giving details of Elizabeth ( e.g. her name, census page references) you may increase the chances of getting an answer.

Michael Dixon,
Newcastle

[sillgen]

Is it possible that she was born in Germany but the birth was registered in Gateshead?  What does the certificate say?    My grandmother always said she was born on the ferry between England and Ireland but her birth is registered in Ireland.
Andrea

[Ditsy]

Sorry for the delay and thanks for your replies.  Her name is Elizabeth Ann Gillert born 31.10.1845, Gateshead.  Her Father was Heindrick Gellert, later changed to Henry Gallard/Gillert/Gilbert.   1841 census shows he was born Foreign Parts.  1851 shows Br. subject, Germany.  1861 shows Prussia.  1871 shows Naturalizee, Germany.
1851 and 1861 census show Elizabeth born Gateshead.

Elizabeth's place of birth on census changes after she is married to Robert Preston.  1871,1891 and 1901 census show she was born Germany.  In fact the 1871 census even gives city Munel/Munich, Germany.  Only the 1881 census shows her place of birth as South Shields.

Elizabeth was Heindrick's first born child.  His other 4 children born Howdon or South Shields.
Am I missing something here?  I haven't actually seen Elizabeth's birth certificate, I was given the information by someone.  Could it be possible she was born Germany and birth registered here???
Sorry if this is long winded.

[Michael Dixon]

Ditsy,

Henry's marriage ( to Catherine Burk ?? ) is registered with Tynemouth Registration District in the March Quarter ( so married in the period  1st Jan to 31st March).

Then your "someone" has told Elizabeth was born 31 Oct 1845. So is that her birth registration with Gateshead Reg District in December qtr of 1845 ?

And as you say in the six censuses she is recorded on, from 1851 to 1901 her "where Born  " is
Gateshead, Gateshead, Germany + , South Shields, Germany, Germany.

The first two probably provided to enumerator by her father. The next three provided by her/her husband, then last one by herself.

The rules on birth registration was that it was to be made in the area in which the birth took place, or if this was "difficult" to make a suitable "declaration" at another office, to be forwarded to the "correct" office.

I can think of no good reason why she should claim to have been born in Germany, if she wasn't or vice-versa !

If she was born in Germany, then her parents were married in Tynemouth area in early 1845, then they had returned to Germany, had her circa 1845/6, then were back in Tynemouth area to have and register Ann in Jun Qtr of 1847 ??

Michael Dixon

[Ditsy]

Hi Michael,
Yes you have got it spot on.  I got Henry and Catherine's marriage cert, yesterday. Married January 1845, Tynemouth Parish.  It shows his occupation as engineman and same for his father Christian Gillirt.  He signed certificate whereas Catherine just gave her mark.  First rellie I have had from that time who was literate.  Was it usual in  those times for people to travel back and forward overseas?  Unfortunately the certificate doesn't show where they were living.  Do you know if census addresses are affluent areas i.e. Croft Street, Howdon - Reken Dyke Lane, Westoe.  When his daughter Catherine married (1896) her address was Charlotte Street, North Shields.

Helen

[Michael Dixon]

Helen,

You ask if it was usual for folk to travel back and forth overseas. Maybe not "usual" but it happened and the shipping trade in/out of the River Tyne could easily have facilitated such travel.

North-east England coal was shipped all over the world, and colliers coulds easily accommodate passengers.

Some of my lot went Ireland>US>Canada>Northumberland>Durham>Canada. So that was at least three times crossing the Atlantic.

 A trip, say, Newcastle>Hamburg or Cuxhaven or Bremen, was but a little skip !

The streets you mention, I think, were just working class.... just browse around those streets on the censuses, paying attention to the men's occupations- to get an idea of the areas !

Henry signing m/c, Catherine not.... not usual, him maybe needing to be literate for his work as engineman. My lot never signed their name until about 1890s.

By the way, does m/c show them to be bachelor and spinster ?. Does it just say Tynemouth Parish or Tynemouth Parish Church, Christ Church ? Who were the witnesses ?

Do you have any baptisms of the children of Henry.Catherine ? If they married within Christ Church, that may indicate that they were Anglicans, not Catholic etc !

~~~~~~~~--

A while ago I was researching a German family who came to Sunderland area, about same era as Henry did. I was surprised at how many German had immigrated - not thousands but dozens...  ( Trivia note... Battle of Waterloo 1815- Priussians/Germans gave big help to British, against the French- so we were pally with Germans until WW1 changed that)


Note that an engineman when he married, but a labourer, on 1851 census ( page ref 2409-169-14) . Engineman covers a wide range of working on/with an engine... including "standing" engine ?


Michael

[Ditsy]

Thanks Michael, you really are very helpful.  Mar. cert. shows they were indeed bachelor and spinster of Tynemouth parish.  It states marriage solemnized at the Parish Church in the Parish of Tynemouth, I take it that would be Christ Church.  Their witnesses were Robert Davison and James Pye.  Names I haven't come across before.  Is it unusual to have two male witnesses?  I like the info about the Prussians, very interesting, helps put it into context.  Thanks also for the info about the Tyne.  Never even crossed my mind that people as well as goods were being transported to and fro overseas... Duh!!! apart from going North Shields to South Shields that is 

Where would I find baptism records, would they be available on line?

[Ditsy]

I have just found Elizabeth's birth certificate.  Parents married October 1845, Elizabeth born nine months later.  Whilst he signed marriage cert,  birth cert. only has Mark X for his signature.  Puzzling.
Elizabeth born at Church Street which is address given for Father Henry, District Gateshead.

Helen