Confused - Cant find them ??

[JAP]

I guess it's a matter of waiting for Mr Grinch to answer the questions that have been posed.

I assume he has good reasons for discounting the Sarah BROOKS, 11, Orphan, b Kingswinford in the 1891 census in Kingswinford with an OAKLEY family ...

JAP

[Mr Grinch]

Hi all
Sorry for the late reply. Right here goes:

Elijah Brook(e)s married Clara Homer in Nov 1878 at Netherton, Worc. Elijah father just shown as deceased, no name. Both were aged 20. Witnesses were Thomas and Maria Parkes. Elijah was a Puddler.
Sarah their daughter married in Spring Grove near Hounslow in Oct 1900. Father shown as Elijah and a Labourer.
I havnt got Clara Homer's birth cert as i wasnt sure which one to get. There were many listed for this area which disects many borders and counties. I know a lot about the Homers but nothing on Sarah's parents. They seem to disapear for 20 years. America ?? Not sure. I have no idea as to whether Sarah had siblings but feel sure there must be some. I had seen the Sarah as a orphan but has discounted as i could find no connection to the family she was staying with.

Help. Its got me this one.

Regards
James

[JAP]

Hello James,

I take it that you have the marriage of Benjamin & Caroline in 1838, and that you have them in all the censuses to 1881 (mistranscribed as HOMES in 1871, as MOMAN in 1851, and as HONER in 1841.

I would not discount the Orphan Sarah BROOKS in the 1891.

There would be no need for any relationship to the family with whom she was placed.  Orphans/children in workhouses were at times placed outside the workhouse until they were old enough to be apprenticed - what, these days, we call 'fostering' with the placement family receiving payment to support the child.

At the very least it would be a good idea to try to research Orphan Sarah BROOKS in order either to rule her in or rule her out.

I do not know what the Workhouse/Poor Law records for Kingswinford are like but if you Google for (say)
workhouse + kingswinford
you will get lots of hits including the following:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/index.html?Stourbridge/Stourbridge.shtml

You could also do a RootsChat search using appropriate terms to see whether these particular records might have been discussed in other threads.

A possible scenario might be as follows in order to explain why Clara & Sarah were with her parents in 1881, and why Benjamin, Caroline, and Clara can't be found in 1891.  Perhaps Elijah had died (though Clara is recorded as married in 1881) or had deserted Clara & Sarah which would explain why they were living with Clara's parents in 1881.  Then perhaps Benjamin & Caroline passed away leaving Clara in difficult circumstances with young Sarah to care for.  Perhaps Clara had no choice but to put Sarah in the workhouse.  Perhaps Clara died.  Perhaps Clara remarried.

All sorts of hypotheses could be advanced.  I assume you've searched the full indexes for possible deaths of Benjamin, Caroline and Clara?

In your original post, you wrote:

...  I do know Sarah did keep in contact with family from the area and travelled there a couple of times a year to visit. Family also came to visit her in Middlesex. There was also talk of family in the USA  ...

Do you have any further details of this e.g. whom she visited, and who visited her?  Perhaps the family in the USA might have been siblings of Clara's?

There are all sorts of possibilities.  But I'd certainly be looking into Orphan Sarah BROOKS (apologies in advance if she turns out to be a red herring!).

JAP

[Mr Grinch]

Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
Sarah's grandparents, Benjamin and Caroline died in 1890 and 1888 respecivly. Elijah is not shown as deceased on Sarah's marriage cert. I have looked at the free BM index's and cant find any relevent DEATHS for the period for Elijah. There is a marriage in 1890 at St ourbridge of a Clara Brooks to a Thomas Heathcote or Henry Wassell. Trouble is the whole area is so tight and confined with Reg districts Cris crossing that this may not be anything to do with my Clara. There is also a Clara Brooks death in St ourbridge in 1921 with the right age.

It just doesn't feel right, Sarah being fostered. The Homer family lived very close together, sometimes next door to each other, sometime together in the same house. I just feel that if she was an orphan she would have gone to family.

Again, its so tightly packed in this area with towns and areas often crosssing over, its very difficult get correct details. Sarah always said that she was born in Quarry Bank but her birth states she was born in Kingswinford which is only a matter of a few miles away BUT they are different Reg Districts.
Confused or what !

James

[JAP]

Hi again James,

I understand what you are saying BUT things not feeling right is sometimes a poor substitute for facts 

Anyway, one part of my hypothesis (and it was only one of many possibilities!) is now shown to be what actually happened i.e. both Benjamin & Caroline had passed away before 1891.

Something we don't know is whether Clara was still alive or was still around by that stage (unless she was the informant of their deaths - have you checked this out?).

Sarah could have been left in the care of her grandparents by Clara (for whatever reason) and could then have had nowhere to go when they died.

As for Elijah, he's not been found in any census either before or after his marriage (as far as I'm aware) so he could be anywhere and could be hiding under any name.

I'm being devil's advocate here but I'd still be following up on the workhouse/poor law records if only in order to rule out Orphan Sarah BROOKS conclusively.

Given that the idea of the workhouse/poor laws doesn't ring true to you (AND if you find that there are no poor law records!) then another possibility is that Sarah was living with the OAKLEYs in 1891 as a private arrangement (perhaps just a temporary arrangement) because the HOMER (and/or BROOKS) relatives simply didn't have room for her in their own accommodation.

We know nothing about the BROOKS family so, at this stage, can only explore the HOMER family.

Were any of Clara's siblings found in the 1881, 1891, 1901, and 1911 censuses?  What were their situations?

In the censuses, I've noticed the following siblings but don't know if there were others and/or which if any survived and/or if they married:
*James b ca 1840 (in 1841 and 1851)
*Mary Anne/Maryan b ca 1841 (in 1851 and 1861)
*Sarah b ca 1850 (in 1851 and 1861)
*Benjamin b ca 1853 (in 1861 and 1871)
*Matilda/Tilda b ca 1856 (in 1861 and 1871)
*Clara b ca 1859 (in 1861 and 1871 - and then, after her marriage, in 1881)

Perhaps you could tell us which of her siblings survived and the married named of sisters and any census references after any siblings had left home?

Sorry for all the questions but I, and obviously others, really would like to help

As you haven't managed to find Elijah before or after his 1878 marriage cert (unless he was the informant on Sarah Sophia's birth certificate - have you checked this out?), as you haven't managed to find Clara after 1881, and as you haven't managed to find Sarah in 1891, you probably do need to consider every possibility however unlikely it might seem.

Very best of luck,

JAP
PS: AMBLY and Spidermonkey, do you have any other ideas?  Finding the Eli BROOKS/Clara SPRUCE marriage in 1880, and the SPRUCE lodger in the 1891, for the other Eli BROOKS was brilliant!  Though, as Spidermonkey suggested,  perhaps Elijah had a double life!  Perhaps he was running two households and had a penchant for ladies called Clara  .  And Mr Grinch did say that Elijah was a puddler on the marriage cert to Clara HOMER (Mr G, you said he was a labourer on Sarah's marriage cert; what was he on her birth cert?).  But that probably means little as puddler was surely a very common occupation in the area ... 

[Spidermonkey]

  Though, as Spidermonkey suggested,  perhaps Elijah had a double life!  Perhaps he was running two households and had a penchant for ladies called Clara  .  

Yup, if you're going to have an affair/double life, make sure both wives have the same  - that way there's never any Freudian slips

If I get a chance tonight, I'll have a quick look at the siblings and see if they hold any clues.

[ggrocott]

Can't help with the original question but the mention of Guyetts in Hounslow interests me - one of my relatives married a Lillian Guyett in Hounslow in 1927.  I have pictures of this lady but no further information although looking at the 1911 census she is probably the Lily Guyett age 8 who is with Charlotte and Samuel Guyett in Hounslow + several siblings.

Interestingly I cannot see your Sarah and James Guyett in Hounslow on the 1911.

[Spidermonkey]

OK, the info we have so far on the Homer family:

1861 census: Salt Well Coppice, Kingswinford RG9; Piece: 2074; Folio: 25; Page: 43
Benjamin Homer  H  Mar  46  Iron roller
Caroline Homer  W  Mar 43
Maryan Homer  Dau 19
Sarah Homer  Dau  12
Benjamin Homer  Son 8
Matilda Homer Dau 5
Clara Homer  Dau 1

All born Kingswinford, Staffs, except Caroline bn Bridgnorth, Shrops

NEXT DOOR
William Homer  H  Mar  35  Puddler of iron
Nancy Homer  W  MAr  34  Nailer
Hannah Homer  Dau  14  Chain maker
Sarah Homer  Dau  9
Benjamin Homer  Son  7
William Homer  son 5
James Homer  son 2

All born Kingswinford, Staffs


1871 census:  Saltwells, Kingswinford RG10; Piece: 3030; Folio: 22; Page: 37
Ben Homer  H  Mar  55  Roller
Caroline Homer  W  Mar  51
Ben Homer  Son  17  Roller
Tilda Homer  Dau  16  Roller
Clara Homer  Dau 13  Scholar

All born Kingswinford, Staffs

NEXT DOOR
William Homer  H  Mar  44  Puddler
Nancy Homer  W  Mar  44
Ben Homer  Son  15  Chain maker
Wm Homer Son  13  Chain maker
James Homer  Son 12  Chain maker
Pheby Ann Homer dau  5  Scholar
Edw Homer  Son  3  Scholar
Hannah Stokes  boarder  Mar 23 

All born Kingswinford, Staffs

[Mr Grinch]

Wow, loads of questions, hope i can answer some:

1. Caroline Homer died in 1888, informant was Benjamin
2. Benjamin died in 1890 informant Sarah Ann Bucknell who was his daughter
3. Spidermonkey if Lily Guyett is one of your reli's then she appears on my tree, congrats cousin  
4. Can anyone check out there Clara Brooks marriage to a Heathcote or Wassell on the 1891 Census ? If its my Clara then might give some clues.
5. Clara was the informant to Sarah's birth. It shows Elijah as a Puddler.
6. With regards to Clara siblings:
James married a Sophia had for kids, Benjamin, Charlotte, Margaret, John.
Mary Ann unknown wh she married.
Sarah Ann married George Bucknell.
Benjamin married a Ann and had 4 kids, Clara, William, Maud, Elizabeth.
Mathilda unknown who she married.

Yes, Elijah seems to be very elusive. Very frustrating. I do understand about hard fact and the need for them but some of my best breakthroughs have only been achieved on gut instinct so i never discount it.

James and Sarah Guyett appear on the 1901 Census but there is a good reason why James isnt on the 1911, but thats for another day   Sarah should be in Hounslow with children Emma and Violet.

Let me know if you need any further info, and i'll try and help. Thanks for all the help so far, the orphan Sarah might be her but why an orphan ??

Regards
G