William Thomas Dickenson c1769-1828

[willow154]

Hi Malc,

Good to hear from you - even if it is with a puzzle!
I, too, had a couple of days out, trying to break down my Staffordshire brickwall. Failed miserably One day!

Anyway, back to the task in hand - Charlotte mystery.
Well, when I read it all I was more than confused, but having looked at my parish registers this is what I found:
Marriage:
Thomas Richards + Elizabeth Hinde 5 Oct 1797 Nottm St. Mary
Baptism:
Charlotte Richards bp 29 Nov 1801 Nottm St Mary
Marriages:
Isaiah Clarke + Charlotte Richards  7 Sep 1837  Nottm St Peter
Isaiah Clarke + Charlotte Chappell 14 Nov 1843  Nottm St Peter
Couldn't find, as you say, a burial for the first Charlotte

However, I did find some other things, which I don't know if you have already, Malc:
1841 census:
Living on Chruch street, Beeston
Isaiah Clarke  41  dentist
Charlotte  37
mary 18
Henry 9
John 6

So, I thought I'd look to see what children I could find:
Jane Clarke 22.1.1821 NSM  apothecary  Red Lion St
Mary Ann Clark  10.4.1823  NSM  "   "
Isaiah William Clarke  30.3.1825  NSM   "   "
Frances Sophia Clarke  17.9.1826  NSP  dentist  Brisdlesmith Gate
Ellen Edna Clarke  12.3.1827  NSP   "   "
Rebecca Farnsworth  Clark  4.12.1829   NSP  surgeon dentist  "
Hawksley Edwin Clarke  26.6.1831  NSP  surgeon dentist    "
Bernard Henry Clarke  3.6.1832  NSP  "  Bridlesmith Gate
Samuel John Clarke 22.2.1835  NSP  "  Low Pavement
Parents:  Isaiah and Mary.

Marriage:
Isaiah Clark + Mary Shardlow  23.12.1819  NSM

Can't find a burial for Mary  - did wonder if this was one of the cholera epidemic periods, and this might explain it. Not sure, to be honest. It looks as if all the burials are complete for the three main churches in Nottm.   What's he doing with all these wives!
So, still haven't figured out what comes next, but will think on that tomorrow. At least I have more of a picture of what was happening up to 1837.

Anyway, Thomas Richards esq I have come across a few times; and often wondered if there was a connection with my husband's lot. I don't think there is one or two did have the title gentleman along the line, but, if my memory serves me right, I think this Thomas Richards was a Hosier.
Charlotte isn't connected, as far as I know, with them - Joseph Richards jnr (son of my elusive one b 1756) married a Charlotte Mew, but I don't think they had any children.

Malc, thank you for the kind offer re the Notts Archives - please don't waste time looking through the indexes, as I've already looked through them all. Just keep your eyes open for a mention along the way.
The only way I will unravel the mystery is if something likes a will (and I've already been through those) or a mention somewhere reveals a clue. At some stage I need to find time to go over every bit of information I've found, and look again at the marriages and baptism in the hope of sorting out who belonged to who, and who lived where. It's not going to be an easy one!
Trouble is rootschat is so inviting and I love helping other people solve their mysteries. At least it's therapeutic, and stops you going round the bend.
My daughter has now moved back near Nottingham, so when the weather gets better I'm hoping to spend time in Nottingham at local studies, archives + Bromley House (have met someone who is a member and can take me in as a guest

Off to look for info on Thomas Richards - back soon, Malc.
Take care,
Paulene
* Beeston area lass.

P.S. Did you know there is an article called 'Dentists, toothers and kind-hearts' in the March issue of Your Family Tree. I haven't read it yet, but it looks quite good.


Anyway, must get to bed - I wrote all this once and lost it when saving some information

[Red_Fred]

Morning Paulene

Gosh, many thanks for looking up the Clarkes for me.

You have hit the same brick-walls as me, namely :-

Mary Clarke nee Shardlow - no death (well, not on paper)
Charlotte Clarke (Mk1) - no death (ditto)

I have traced the recorded lives of all of Isaiah and Mary's children down to 1901, apart from one - the oddly named Hawksley Edwin Clarke.  Again no recorded death and the lad doesn't seem to appear on the census of 1841.  Although the family were prone to using the middle name for certain of the children

Re 1841, whilst Isaiah was in Beeston, his eldest son (also Isaiah) and one of the older girls were living in the main home on Low Pavement.  The eldest girl, Jane (my g.g. grandma), was living on Houndsgate with her brand new husband William Thomas Dickenson (jnr).  Next door were William and Mary Doncaster.  Mary was WTD senior's last wife, Mary Whiley.

WTD junior died (like his dad) in Newton in 1859.  On the 1861 census Jane Dickenson is staying with her dad and step mum Isaiah and Charlotte Clarke on Low Pavement.

The search for Mary, Charlotte (mk1), Charlotte (mk2) and Hawksley Edwin Clarke goes on.

Enjoy Bromley House - wonderful place - I'm not a member myself but have been signed in on occasions in the past.  Coincidentally I met one of the directors of the library last weekend at Nottingham Playhouse - she and I were at school together - urged me to join but I haven't got the time to make use of the facilities right now.

I will look at the article on dentists.  As a final point for now all of Isaiah (snr's) sons started off as dentists but only one (Isaiah jnr in Bristol) stayed in the trade - although I think that Isaiah senior had at least one brother (James Clarke) who plied (or pliered - ouch!) the trade.

Incidentally my first marital home was in Beeston Rylands lived there for eight years.

All for now

Thanks again

Malc

[willow154]

Hi Malc,

Well, it certainly isn't straight-forward, is it!

It seems strange to think that a couple named both of their daughters Charlotte - or have I got that bit wrong! Or, did you mean sister-in-laws. (no, maybe not!)
I could understand that - if the first one died; but not if both were living! 
I think it's more likely that they are two, or more,  Thomas Richards around in Nottingham at this time (well you know already that there are two married to Elizabeths)  But, like you, I can only find one baptism for a Charlotte Richards with a father named Thomas
Is the information with regard to the father's names from the marrigage certificates, Malc? Do either say Thomas Richards, deceased (of did that come in later? Maybe it did) Still think it's strange there is only one marriage bond/licence - perhaps there is another marriage licence in Derbyshire, or somewhere else.

I also wonder if the first Charlotte Richards died in another area, Malc. (perhaps if her father was the one who died in Hoxton (*see further on), that that might explain one part of the puzzle).

Anyway, this is the information on Thomas Richards:
Universal British Directory, 1791 -98
Corporation
Esquires. Members in Parliament
Mr Thomas Richards + Mr Henry Green jnr.   Chamberlains
 + later .....
Richards, Thomas   hosier

1815 Sutton's Nottingham Directory
Richards, Thomas   hosier    Castle-gate

1825 Glover's Nottingham Directory
Senior Council
And also of the Livery or Clothing Burgesses
Mr. Thomas Richards, London

3 references to him also come up on google booksearch if you put in Thomas Richards Nottingham:
The Nottm Date Book
P.349  1819

Politics and Society in Nottingham   P. 116   1825

Parliamentary Papers 1843   P.29

*Nothing spectacular there.

There is a will on NA:
11 July, 1840   Will of Thomas Richards, late Silk Merchant of Haberdashers Place, Hoxton, Middlesex   PRO 11/1931
* can't see any Charlotte mentioned
(bought it in case it was connected with my lot, but as I thought it isn't  - writing is so fuzzy, but I'm almost certain no Charlotte is mentioned, Malc).
So, in my opinion I not sure this one was Charlotte's father   - unless it was Charlotte Mk 1's father, and where is her birth + what age was this one! (so complicated, isn't it!)
To have been a burgess, and a Chamberlain in 1791 this Thomas Richards must I think have born before 1770, because of the age of finishing his apprenticeship. Pity we don't know his age at death - I suppose it will say on the death certificate, in 1840.

But, I did find several interesting things on NA site:
www.rootschat.com/links/05pm
www.rootschat.com/links/05pp

There is a lot to look through, Malc, but you will see that George Graham Chappell is mentioned .

Now, I could be getting this completely wrong, but it looks as if this Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Richards, remarried in 1816, to Joseph Burbage, at Nottm St Mary. So, this, Elizabeth Burbage, has the mother of Charlotte Mk 2.

Anyway, Malc, see what conclusion you come to, and let me know. As I said I may have it all completely upside down, and I won't be at all offended if you say so. It doesn't by any means answer all of the questions but it may give a bit of a glimpse into some of it.

Bye for now.
Paulene

Sorry - I know it's going to take a bit to get your head round all of this   Perhaps I've so much time on all this my brain has become a bit addled - wouldn't surprise me

Sheila, please feel free to say what you think   We could do with some help!

Malc, I can email you the will if you want to see it youserlf - you, too, Sheila.
 

[Dizzifish]

Hello Malc…Hello Paulene,

I had been thinking about the Dickenson’s but circumstances at home are preventing me for getting back to it at the moment….although I will keep taking a peak and putting in my two pennies worth if I can.
I have lost my train of thought, but I did wonder if some of them did come from down south and maybe went back.
I saw there was a Charles Henry Dickenson born in Nottingham living in Greenwich, Kent in 1851; H0.107/1587/83/21 and in 1861 he is in Plumstead, Kent; RG9/408/125/21 I think it say’s he is a Shell Trimmer….whatever that is.

Sheila.

[willow154]

Hi Sheila,
Nice to hear from you Join in when, and if you can - don't the mystery is going to be solved overnight! No pressure.
Just knew I was going round in circles a bit and sometimes a new brain can see the errors you make, better than you can yourself.

Little more information this morning:
Thinking about Elizabeth remarrying, in 1816, I had another look at the parish registers - to see if I could find a death for Thomas Richards, between 1810 (when his last child was born) and 1816 when she remarried.

I found:
Thos. Richards 06 Oct 1814  38 yrs
Sneinton St Stephen
Abode: Nottingham

Also there (and this confirms it is the right Thomas):
Thos. Chadburn Richards  27 Oct 1812
Sneinton St Stephen
son of Thos.

There is also an Ann Richards there, too  26 Mar 1815  65 yrs 
Abode: Old Sneinton
Wonder if this is Thomas's mother? Might not be related at all.

All fits in with the information regarding Thomas and Elizabeth's children:
Ann  16 Oct 1810  Nottm St Mary
Thomas Chatburn   24 Oct 1789   Nottm St Mary
Thomas   2 Oct 1798  Nottm St Mary
Charlotte  29  Nov 1801.

All this makes Thomas, the father, born c 1776. I can only see one candidate at the moment which is one born in Beeston, to a William and Mary - but this might not be him. Any others, I wonder

This all fits in with something amongst those entries on NA:
www.rootschat.com/links/05pw
www.rootschat.com/links/05px

All the above also confirms that is is the Elizabeth Hinde we are looking at, and not Elizabeth Flower (who married her Thomas in 1801).

Wee, Malc, apologies if you've got all of this already - I know that it's the mystery of the two Charlottes and Hawksley Edwin that you really want to solve. Just hoping that if we can't find them the direct way, that going a different way will work. We can hope!

Anyway, have to wash my hair, so back later. (I'll be in touch, Sheila)
Take care.
Paulene

[Red_Fred]

Catching up time !

Hi Sheila and Paulene

re Thomas Richards and the two Charlottes (Mk2 = Chappell nee Richards)

I am really interested in him - would love to solve the mystery of the guy and the two Charlottes.

Before I go on I wonder whether we ought to open a separate post on him and his family ?

To sum up and re-appraise, all I have on him is as follows :-

Daughter Charlotte's (Mk 1.) wedding at St. Peter's, Nottingham 17 September 1837.  He is described as a gentleman (no mention of "deceased").  Charlotte was a spinster living on Clumber Street, Nottingham.  Witnesses James Clarke and Jane Clarke

Charlotte Chappell's wedding St. Peter's, Nottingham 14 November 1843.  She is a widow of Low Pavement, Nottingham. Her father is Thomas Richards (gentleman) - no mention of deceased. Witnesses William Clarke and Jane Clarke.

Turning to the Charlotte's
Charlotte Clarke - whom we assume to be Mark One was with husband Isaiah on Church Street, Beeston on the 1841 census, aged 37 years, she was born in Notts.

The second Charlotte Clarke (formerly Chappell nee Richards) was baptised in St. Mary's, Nottingham per the 1851 census.  I think she died Apr-May 1870, if it's the right one her age is given as 65 - might be worth my getting her death certificate.

I am really intrigued (puzzled!) by the apparent facts that both Charlottes were -

(a) born in Notts
(b) have Thomas Richards (gentlemen) as their father
(c) born in about 1804/5

And of course we can find no death for Charlotte Mark 1

A bit of me thinks that there might be one Charlotte and the wedding in 1837 to Isaiah was bigamous on Charlotte's part - if she had indeed married George Graham Chappell in Derby in 1824 and her father was dead, she might have got away with it for a time.

All this is pure pure speculation - though Paulene has pointed me to some sort of court case between George Chappell and Charlotte Chappell - I will look again at that.

I have just spotted that a George Chappell died in Nottingham in Jan-Mar 1838 - oh dear !!

As my head is hurting I will step away from the keyboard and have a cup of tea....

Malc

[willow154]

Complicated, isn't it - to say the least!

[Red_Fred]

Hi

Having migrated this post into Richards - Clarke - Chappell territory,  I'm bringing this post back to William Thomas Dickenson  !!!

I will open a new post on the Richards - Clarke - Chappell mystery as I have gained some more information which has inevitably raised more questions (the thick plottens!!)

However, back to WTD.  Acting on some excellent advice and information from Paulene and Sheila (thank you ladies), I delved into the Nottingham Borough Apprenticeship Index at the Notts Record Office.

Lo and behold there is a record for the apprenticeship of Thomas Dickenson as a Framework Knitter in 1803 (ref 4/348).  He was the son of William Thomas Dickenson, Dyer of Nottingham.

Armed with that snippet of information I searched the IGI for Thomas Dickenson and came up with the baptism of a Thomas Dickenson in Shoreditch 28 Feb 1790 - father William Thomas Dickenson,  mother Mary

There is a marriage on IGI in Bethnal Green 30 March 1788 - William Thomas Dickenson to Mary Wrigglesworth Paterson.

The apprenticed Thomas may indeed be the person picked up by Sheila who married Caroline Norton in Nottingham in 1808 - though he would have married young.

The evidence Sheila produced concerning Thomas' occupation in 1815, when Charles Henry was baptised, supports the link and suggests that maybe Thomas gave up on FWKing as a dying trade and joined his dad in the Dyeing trade (!!)

This is still unfinished business and further confirmations are needed, but a clearer picture is beginning to emerge.

It's good to have strong evidence that WTD's origins lay outside Notts - hence my difficulty in pinning the rascal down.

Comments and views on the above will be gratefully received

Malc

[willow154]

Hi Malc,
Just been looking at eh baptisms on familysearch for any Thomas Dickensons and that does seem to be the likely one, doesn't it.
I was a bit concerned that the age for the start of Thomas's apprenticeship in 1803 was a bit early, Malc, so I did a bit of digging around to see if many started before the age of fourteen (the usual age) and it seems some did:
www.rootschat.com/links/05ul
They usually served a seven year apprenticeship, though in the early years some did nine years. And.often they were not allowed to marry until their apprenticeship finished, and they were made burgesses.
However, I looked for a baptism for Thomas's father William Thomas Dickenson and found one for a William Thomas Dickerson in 1769:
05 Mar 1769 St. Leonard's, Shoreditch.
F: William   M: Ann
(see whether you think this the one, Malc).
So, if this is his father's baptism that would mean he was only nineteen when he married in 1788.
In which case perhaps this family married earlier than most; before the end of their apprenticeships.
Did you by any chance find a record for when Thomas became a burgess, Malc?
I suppose the only way to be sure is to look and see if the family stayed in London - any apprenticeships there, or any marriages there. If not, then it's fair to assume they are the ones in Nottingham, Malc.
Apprenticeship records for the father might also how that he ceased taking on apprentices in London, and started in Nottingham.
But, on the face of it, Malc, it looks good.
We'll wait and see what Sheila makes of it. Or, anyone else who cares to join in the thread.
Glad the trip to the Notts Archives was successful.
Bye for now,
Paulene