Thomas Fitzsimmons 1891/1901 Census

[ibi]

Hi All

Can I pop in and add something that I've just found. Not sure if it's been found before but it's not in JAP's, Trish's or Ibi's summaries:

1871 census
30 Princes Street, Glasgow - 644/5 ED 2 Page 18

Mary Cronin, hd, wid, 21 or 27, lodging house keeper, b. Ireland
Her  family and lodgers including:
Robert Fitzsimmons, lodger, 26, b. Ireland. (ie. b.c 1845)

Robert is amongst  a group of men (possibly sharing a room),  the first of which is down as Unm and all the rest are 'doed'. In the occupation field for all of them is written 'Trade not known'

Unlikely, given the place of birth as Ireland, not Ayr, or St Quivox, plus the fact that where an occupation was reported for Robert, he was consistently shown as an engine driver or the like.

No Thomas of the right age so far on the 1871 - with lots of wildcards.

But until and unless an unambiguous entry for a Robert or Thomas is found ...........

Nothing on the 1861 yet.

'Hiding' in Newton-on-Ayr RD as opposed to Ayr RD which later incorporated Newton-on-Ayr,

Thomas FITZIMONS, 61  Pit Head(?) Man  b. Ireland
Helen  Do    Wife  55 Housekeeper  b. St. Quivox
Robt   Do     Son  17  Engine Driver  b. Newtown-on-Ayr

In the earlier 1851 census entry there's a granddaughter Helen O'HARA, the daughter Ann of the above Thomas FITZIMONS having married John O'HARA.


Unfortunately the location of a matching Robert in 1851 and 1861 doesn't mean that there isn't a Thomas lurking somewhere else.

The family may have been Roman Catholic so that when those records become more widely available we may be able to move nearer proof.

ibi

[Gadget]

Think you're being a bit too dismissive of the 1871 find, ibi.

Engine drivers might go from Ayr to Glasgow and stay the night. Also, as it was a lodging house, the landlady doesn't seem to have been too thorough in her other facts. I don't think that this should be discounted out of hand at all.


Gadget

[ibi]

Think you're being a bit too dismissive of the 1871 find, ibi.

Engine drivers might go from Ayr to Glasgow and stay the night. Also, as it was a lodging house, the landlady doesn't seem to have been too thorough in her other facts. I don't think that this should be discounted out of hand at all.


Gadget

Gadget

See my PM.

Orraverybest

ibi

[ibi]

Hello All,

If you look at the family history of the Fitzsimmons, all variations, in Ayrshire, starting with the origins of this family Thomas Fitzsimmons, and Helen Divan, you will come to the conclusion that Robert, is the actual partner of Mary Scullion, and not Thomas.

Its really quite straightforward.

Regards,
Jonn.

Hi John

Thanks for your comments.

ibi

[ibi]

Hi All

Please note that I won't be posting further on this thread.

I'm in direct contact with Scully by email.

ibi

[JAP]

....
Yes, I did manage to find the parents (Thomas and Helen) with a Robert aged 9 in 1851 (age a bit out for "our" Thomas/Robert).

But no-one seems to have picked up on the significance of the granddaughter in the household thus positively linking this family to the Robert we're looking for.

Just a very quick comment before I all too very belatedly retire to my virtuous antipodean couch!

(And what a dreadful shame that this thread has developed as it has.  This is not what RC is normally like.)

Yes, I drew attention to the 1851 census entry which had not previously been mentioned or posted on the thread.

But the presence of Helen D HARA (sic), granddaughter, age 1 in the household of Thomas & Helen FITZSIMMONS in 1851 was so 'mind-bogglingly' obvious (given previous posts by ibi which so clearly spelled out the relationships of the FITZSIMMONSs and the O'HARAs) that it didn't remotely occur to me to draw specific attention to granddaughter Helen's presence.  We could surely work that out for ourselves, couldn't we?  And if not, we've surely all got a problem.

Very best regards to scully (hope you stay with us!) and all,

JAP
PS: And I hope that future correspondence about these people is online rather than by PM.
That's how everybody on RootsChat benefits as do people who make Google searches.

[scully]

Hi All,
Thanks to you all for your input. I didn,t think it would cause such a debate.
But here is a little bit more information I found out about the family. Its an MI from St Margaert's R.C.Church, John St, Ayr.

Erected by Ann Fitzsommons in memory of her beloved husband John O'Hara, Merchant, Died at Ayr, 16/12/1900 aged 78yrs. Also in memory of their daughter Helen, died Oct/1846 aged 3yrs 9mths. Also the above Ann Fitzsimons who died 8/12/1909 aged 85yrs. John Fitzsimmons, died 19/6/1916 aged10yrs.  Thomas Fitzsimmons died 16/7/1920 aged 49yrs. Also his wife Mary McM Fitzsimmons died 11/6/1956 aged 81yrs.

Don't know who this John is who died in 1916. He might be the child of Thomas Fitzsimmons & Mary McMillan.


Scully

[JAP]

Hi Scully,

After editing/correcting my summary (reply #18 ), I've come to the conclusion that Thomas is a red herring - just simple errors on the 1867 marriage entry, and the 1870 birth entry.

So, concentrating on looking for a Robert FITZSIMMONS of the right age, I've come up with the following which is surely "your" Robert!  Sorry about the location!

1871 Census
Kilmarnock Prison, Ayrshire
Robert FITZIMMONS
Prisoner
Age: 26 (i.e. born ca 1845)
Birthplace: Ayr, Ayrshire
Occupation: Engine Keeper

This would explain why wife Mary, and children Annie and Thomas, were with Mary's parents in 1871.

And perhaps again (or still? - was he allowed out for a time when Mary died?) in prison in 1881 - but now in England.

1881 Census
RG11/897/77/40
HM Convict Prison, Chatham, Kent
Robert FITZSIMMONS
Prisoner
Age: 36 (i.e. born ca 1845)
Marital Status: Married
Birthplace: Scotland
Occupation: Convict

'Married' is interesting (though, if he was 'still' in prison, that might have come from his original records).

JAP
PS: I couldn't find mention of Robert in the online NAS.  Perhaps there might be something in their card index.
Here is a RootsChat thread discussing possible sources for records of HM Prison, Chatham, Kent:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,61753.0.html
PPS: (later edit) Gadget, I think your Glasgow 1871 idea was a very good one and I was about to follow it up - until I found the above!  And that Kent chap has been niggling at me for a while ...

[scully]

hi Jap,
Thats probably why i can't find his death in Scotland. I'd love to find out what he had done and why he was in prison. I wonder why in 1871 he was in Kilmarnock Prison and in 1881 he was in a prison in Kent. Well its  another puzzle to find out. Thanks for the info.

Scully