ROBERTS - Born in America??

[tiggi]

Hi Devonblue
I like your logical thinking :
Yes its possible Robert( Bob) was Matilda sibling
I think you have listed possible siblings too

Robert b 1819 Dorset i have seen his birth as early as 1815
James b 1816 Wiltshire
Joseph 1821 Dorset
Matilda b 1826, Exeter

Here are some more possible family:
John Wells 1801
Thomas Wells 1801
George Wells 1802
Benjamin Wells 1804
Emmanuel Wells  1811
Shadrack Wells 1812
Jane Wells 1828

1851 Workhouse Shaftsbury St James Dorset
George Wells       87 b 1764  Shaftsbury Dorset      widower                          Razor Grinder

1851 Census Morden Dorset
George Wells         49 b 1802 Dorset                                        Basketmaker
Elizabeth Wells     48 b 1803 Wandborough Hampshire
Jintildo Wells        19 b 1832 Broadwayne Dorset
Benjamin Wells     16 b 1835 Mongton Dorset                        Basketmaker
Alice Wells            14 b 1837 Broad Chalk Wiltshire
Louisa Wells           9 b  1842 Ashmore Dorset
Zacharius Smith    44 b 1807 Rotherwick Hampshire             Basket maker 
Would say that Elizabeth & Zacharius are sister & Brother

1851 Census
Shaftsbury Holy Trinity Dorset
John Wells              50 b 1801  Pentridge Dorset                Razor Grinder
Mahala                   42 b 1809 Millbrook Hampshire
Dinah                     22 b 1829Lavant Sussex
Charity                   16 b 1835 Ashmore Dorset
Walter                     14 b 1837 Shaftsbury Dorset
Patience                  10 b1841 Shaftsbury
Elizabeth                  7 b 1844 Shaftsbury
John                         5 b 1846 Shaftsbury
Ephraim                   3 b 1848 Shaftsbury
Alfred                      2 b1849 Shaftsbury
John                         1 b 1850  Shaftsbury                       (Grandson)


 I am not convinced that the father of all would be a James though...... could be any given name really have to look at sons etc to see name association or if we are lucky find maybe Robert Wells birth register that would gaive us much more help with parents.

I was thinking  about what you asked why Roberts went to USA ?
 Here is another possible reason they could have gone over when Robert Wells died he was known as a king of Gypsies in USA and when any of them died many came from all over the world for the funeral and also the Stanley family & Cooper family Owen Stanley & Harriet Wharton i think died about that time so could be they went over again for funeral I know it might seem abit far fetched ,but on their orbits it does say many came from England, just  thought..

also note Rebecca Roberts was b abt 1834 in Dorset could she have been a Wells ?
I also note you have Mark the son married to  :

Mark Roberts' son also Mark went on to marry Patience Manley in 1919 and Brittania I think married Powers Manley, Patience's Uncle, about 1889 when she was 23.

I have Mark married to a Frances Orchard ? was this his 1st marriage ? I can;t remember where or who told me and have no dates......... but its noted against him on my file i know I would not write it unless someone had told me

[devonblue]

According to Matilda's marriage cert her father was James Wells a cutler so presumably siblings would have the same father if they had the same surname.

As for Mark Roberts he was def married to Patience Manley as Patience was my mother in law's aunt and the used to visit well within living memory.  I wonder if that was his second marriage then?

I'll have to look tomorrow, I'm off out in a mo for the rest of the day.

[tiggi]

AAh its my eyes lol sorry Blue you have Mark son of Mark married to Patience Manley
 I think I am talking about Mark born 1864 married Fiance Orchard would be Father and mother to Mark
Sorry   

[Trainette]

Hi , I have been following this thread as it my direct line, All I know is that lots of Romanies went to America about that time, some liked it stayed and others chose to come back to England.  I come from The Roberts twice as my mothers granny was Martha Roberts daughter of Fred and Becky she married Joe Orchard and my fathers granny was Trainette daghter of Fred and Becky and she marrie Joe Penfold. The Fiance who married Mark Roberts was a sister to Joe ( married to Martha)

[tiggi]

Hi trainette
Thanks for clearing that up 
 I am related to James Cooper & Sarah Roberts ( Fred & Rebecca daughter)
Their son William Cooper married my Grt Aunt Tianne Buckland

What I would like to know if you can help who was Fred Roberts parents and Rebecca's ?
 Also do you know who Henry Cooper William's brother married ?
I only have 1st name of Caroline ?

[devonblue]

Tiggi, I have Mark Roberts marrying Fiance (Frances) Orchard in SeptQ 1889  registered in  Exeter.  Those are Mark Jn's parents.

I am now even more puzzled by the Wells though.
I have found a family of Robert Wells b 1819, his wife Amelia and several children going to America in 1854 and again in 1862, about the time that the Roberts went.  This lot include a Richard Wells b in Glasgow.  A Richard Wells b 1841 Glasgow was living with the Manleys (Matilda Wells) in lodgings in Sidmouth in 1871 so they must be related somewhere along the line.  I wonder if the Robert Wells who went to America was Matilda's brother? Do you know anything about these ?

Have still had no replies to my emails to the owner of the Romanygenes sites who appears to be related to all this lot too via the Hughes/Jones family.

[tiggi]

Hi Devonblue
Yes I do know of the Wells family you mention Robert was known as old "Bob" Wells in USA and family were considered wealthy Horsedealers and he was known as King of Gypsies in USA....... but then many were ...

 He died in 1901 in USA aged 90
 I think you could be right Matilda could well be a sister as several of the Wells Families have a Matilda so its a name that runs though family
Proving it is another matter .........

Robert Himself had a daughter Matilda b 1850/1 I know  married Hekeziah Wells > son of Joseph Wells  Roberts Brother they settled in America and married into my Buckland family and they were also linked to Stanley family

Regarding Robert Wells his daughter Pheobe  married Samuel Cooper another English Gypsy family in USA called Coopers of Somerville  ( also wealthy Horsetraders) which that family relate back to Matthis Cooper ( Windsor Coopers) who was friend of Charles Leland

I have worked out that there were several Wells brothers and nearly all the family came from Dorset in England
 but not all travelled to USA
There was Robert George William Henry Benjamin James Josiah  .......... sisters > Fanny Janey ( Ganey)

My Grt Grt Grandmother was Unity Wells daughter of Benjamin Wells also brother to Robert Wells

Robert had also a son Richard b 1854 he married Martha Williams of the William Gypsies from England also famous in USA for horsetrading and owning property...... her father was  known as "Prince" Thomas Williams
As far as I can find out Richard Wells died sometime between 1876-1880 in USA


 do you have the 1862 passenger list ? i would love a copy if you do

[devonblue]

Thanks for this. Sorry didn't reply sooner but I've got a virus which has made me v dizzy.

I found that passenger list  info on the American Romanichals (Passenger Lists) part of the RomanyGenes site.   I will try and find it on another source and see if  it gives  us any more info.

Arrival Date Jul 1854 Port of Departure Glasgow, Scotland *Ship TryPage1

********************************************
Ren Wells (Robert)1 Jul 1854 abt 1819 Glasgow, Scotland
Amelia Wells  1 Jul 1854  abt 1827        Glasgow, Scotland        
Betsy Wells    1 Jul 1854    abt 1846    Glasgow, Scotland       
Diana Wells    1 Jul 1854    abt 1845    Glasgow, Scotland       
Henry Wells 1 Jul 1854    abt 1851    Glasgow, Scotland    
Leonard Wells 1 Jul 1854 abt 1848    Glasgow, Scotland    
Matilda Wells 1 Jul 1854    abt 1850    Glasgow, Scotland        
Richd Wells    1 Jul 1854    abt 1854    Glasgow, Scotland           
Wm Wells    1 Jul 1854    abt 1843    Glasgow, Scotland    

[tiggi]

Hi Devonblue
thanks for that I have 1854 passenger list
there were more that went I am posting them so you can see
Also on the same Ship were Stanley family
Benjamin Skinner Stanley              b 1826  aged 28 (Owen & Harriet Stanley Son)
Mary Stanley b 1824                                            30 ( Mary Hicks)
Betsy Stanley b 1853                                              1
Leva Stanley b 1850                                              4
Samuel Stanley b 1852                                          2
Sentella Stanley b 1848                                         6
Thomas Stanley b 1854                                         -
Tracy Stanley b 1831                                           22
William Stanley b 1832                                       23
Betsey Stanley b 1853                                           1
*******
John Harrison b 1827                                        29
Priscilla Harrison b 1827                                  29
Mary lou ( Naylor) Harrison b 1850                 4
John Harrison b 1853                                         1
***********
Henry Harrison b 1829                                    25
Hyat Harrison b 1836                                      18
Richard Harrison b 1837                                 17
Viletine Harrison b 1846                                   8

****************************************
Rebecca Cooper b 1799 English   aged 55
Phebe Cooper 1846  b English      aged  8
************************************
Richard Hicks abt 1826 b England aged 28 9 could be brother of Mary Hicks )
**************************

Its the 1862 passenger list i don;t have if you come across thato ne please let me know would be interesting to see who else went at that time