Harris /Chruchman

[llulwyn]

I am looking for my Great Grand Mother's Father

I Know that her Mother was Matilda Harris ( She is my Gt Gt GrandMother) married Charles Churchman
on the 19th Dec.1859 @ sawston Camb.

Now the Problem is....The Family thought that My Great GrandMother's maiden was Churchman..I have found the Birth certfifcate of my grandMother, and it shows her Mother  as Phoebe Harris..b.1852(oops!)..
I am therefore assuming that Matilda had been married before.
In the 1881 census a Charles Churchman wife Tilder (?Short for Matilder) children Ellen 8yrs. Thomas 6yrs.
(Charles being their Father)in Sawston....
This info meets with what I have found sofar....

So what am I looking for?
Was Matilder Harris a Widow..before marrying Charles Churchman.
And who was Great Grand Mother's Father   

Can you help?
Is this a muddle?

Kevin. 

[Anjo]

Hi,

             Excuse me if I have this wrong but it took several readings to understand this.

Matilda Harris m Charles Churchman. 19 Dec 1859 ok

Their Daughter should have been Pheobe Churchman but turned out to be Phoebe Harris.

So Phoebe was born 6 years before Matilda got married.

Yes Matilda could have been married before or she just had a child before marriage which is a lot more common than you would think.

Looking at the 1851 census index of Cambridge there is a Matilda Harris age 16 in Whittlesford, Cambridge.

I took a look at the 1881 and it didn't give a birth place for her. So I checked the map and Whittlesford is only a stone throw from Sawston so could be your woman

This is her family if you think this could be right then if you post on the board again with the ref no. some one should be able to look at the census and get an address and occupations and birthplaces for you.

Jame Harris  47   Whittlesford
Elizabeth "    47           "
Matilda    "     16           "
Christopher   15            "
William           12           "
Joseph            8            "
Mary                3            "

HO/107/1761   76A


They don't seem to show up on the 1841 census index but we might no more if you get the 1851 census checked out.       

Hope this helps you sort out the muddle you have.

All the best Angela.

[llulwyn]

Thanks Angela

You have found out something else, that also has been a puzzle....
Whittlesford....my GrandMum use to mention this place,
and now I see why....It is where the Harris family came from.... ....you do not know how helpful you have been.
thanks again
 Kevin

[Anjo]

Glad I have you on the right track.

I do have the 1841 census which I can do  a lookup for you but as I said Matilda didn't seem to be on the index but when you find out where the Harris's come from I will check the census again for you.

http://www.cfhs.org.uk/

Have you tried this link it has the index's to the 1841 and 1851 census plus baptisms 1801 to 1837 and a whole lot more. Well worth a look. I highly recommend it.

All the best Angela.

[llulwyn]

Here is the contiuous saga of the Churchman/Harris family..
Oh! Help!

Here we go again..
Ok..steady now..ready...begin...

1) 1883 Phoebe Harris m.Walter James Gregory....Ok..good
    Now i have obtained  their marriage lines...and.....
    Phoebe's Father is a Charles Harris (store keeper) and   
    alive at the time of the marriage.....eh?

2) 1859 Charles Churchman m.Matilda Harris in Sawston
    Camb....OK....the first child to use the name Churchman
    was Harriet b.1861....so when did Charles Harris and   
    Matilda part company?..they must have divorced.didn't   
    they?

3) 1848 a Charles Harris m Matilda Sarah Glossip @
    Spittalfields christ Church Stepney..E.London
    Could these be Phoebe's Parents?

Oh the Harris/Churchman saga is getting more and more complicated..Can't find Charles Harris in 1851 census anywhere....eh? do you think..what I am thinking...Are the two Charles' the same person?

 Help ....

Kevin

[Anjo]

Right lets steady ourselves.

Where was pheobe born. And do we now gather that Charles Harris and Matilda Unknown are the parents?

If we sort them out we can sort the rest or so the theory goes.

Angela.

[Anjo]

Have you got the 1871 sorry if you have but here they are again

Charles Churchman   38   Lab  b. Sawston
Matilda  Churchman   37           b. Sawston  Works at paper mill
Pheobe Churchman    16          b. Sawston  At Home
Jane      Churchman    13          b.    "            Works at paper mill
Harriet  Churchman     10         b.    "             Scholar
Cornelius     "                7                "                  "
Emma           "               4                 "                  "

Living Mill Lane Cottages Sawston.

If Matilda did get married before Charles Churchman It mustn't have lasted long. He either died or it didn't happen. Could be that for decency sake that Charles Harris was put on the cert or confusion on the behalf of the vicar who just presumed the father of Pheobe would be a Harris. You have a bit of a problem there. There is no Charles Harris to be found and I still feel that the Matilda Harris I found you is likely to be one and the same.

Angela.

[llulwyn]

I have to agree with you....
I could not find a death of a Charles Harris either...
Yes i have the 1871 census....
This is a problem....shame there are no old members of the family alive.....

Well..it looks like either...Phoebe and her sister Jane were born out of marriage...therefore had to registered in thier Mother's maiden name....and charles Churchman is the father
..confused I am...do you remember the TV programme just called "sOAP"..i feel a little like that....

Onward we go...I hope to solve it one day...

thanks for your help

Kevin.

[Anjo]

Hi Kevin,

The only hope you have is that the parish records of Pheobe's christening might enlighten you. It  might mention more than just names and dates.


I wish you all the best with your family and a lucky break!

Angela.