Marianne Caldwell/William Lionel Pyne

[floxxie]

Ros - would you mind please looking out for the death duty due of Eliza's estate? Hopefully, we will get some clue to George Pyne's place of residence!

Horatio Clagett had an elder brother named Thomas William Clagett!

This web of intrigue is becoming ever more infathomable.

Justin

Reference For Eliza's death duty is PC3 588

[DebbieG]

With regard to George Caldwell, the index for the wills says his effects were under £200 - late of 1 Lower Belgrave Street in the County of Middx. dec. who died 5/3/1863 at 18 Wellington Cresc., Ramsgate in the County of Kent.  Was proved at the Principal Registry by the oath of Louisa Mary Frances Ellis of 16 Bloomfield St., Paddington in Middx. Spinster - sole executrix.  We didn't get his will.

 

Does anyone know who Louisa Mary Frances Ellis was??

DebbieG

[Spidermonkey]

Seems to have been born in Jun qtr 1839 Bath 11/17 whoever she is!!

[Hungry Pelican]

Yes, of course I'll look up Eliza's death duty record, Justin - and thanks Fiona for the reference. Ros

[heywood]

With regard to George Caldwell, the index for the wills says his effects were under £200 - late of 1 Lower Belgrave Street in the County of Middx. dec. who died 5/3/1863 at 18 Wellington Cresc., Ramsgate in the County of Kent.  Was proved at the Principal Registry by the oath of Louisa Mary Frances Ellis of 16 Bloomfield St., Paddington in Middx. Spinster - sole executrix.  We didn't get his will.

Does anyone know who Louisa Mary Frances Ellis was??

DebbieG

Guess what? No sign of Louisa Mary Frances Ellis after her birth in 1839- now why am I not surprised   

[heywood]

The only Louisa Ellis I could spot which could be an outside possibility is a Louisa Ellis in 1841 living in London with father Robert- Army born India and mother and siblings not born in county.
Perhaps she needs to be shelved for a while.

Is it just me or is anyone else confused with all these names that have been put into the pot  I'll just have to work my way back through the threads.

[DebbieG]

OK - I have really tried on this one this week, and I have come up with a theory, but I can’t find all the evidence to either prove or disprove it.  I thought I would put it on here and see what others think.  I would welcome comments.

First I don’t think either William Lionel Pyne or Charles Horatio Pyne exist, I do think we are looking at births/baptisms of children to single mothers Eliza and Marianne Pyne.  I can’t think of any reason other than that for the fathers name not to appear on the baptism records - even if he was away at sea or in the army I think the record would still include his name, plus the fact that Marianne seems to change her mind as to wether he is called William or John!  And Eliza in her will asks Horatio Claggitt  to have a care for her children.

[DebbieG]

I found a reference to a document in Cornwall RO which mentions both John Burnett Applebee and two members of the Pyne family, William Pyne and Nathaniel Pyne, who appear to have been land agents for the Wellesley family.  This document says that Nathaniel is William’s son, but I think in fact he was his brother.

Notes on Nathaniel Pyne

NATHANIEL PYNE
Marriages:
  Spouse:  HARRIOT SARAH MATHEW   
  Marriage:  20 FEB 1836   Old Church, Saint Pancras, London,
 
 
1851 St Ives Cornwall

Natheniel Pyne 50  land steward born Islington Middx
Harriet Pyne 45  born Mddx Islington
Selinda Mathews 26  neice vistor born Mddx Hackney
Jane King 32 

1861 St Ives Cornwall

Nathaniel Pyne 60  land steward born Holbourn Middx
Harriet Pyne 58  born Middx London
Selina Matthews 35  neice unmar born Mddx Dalston
Ann Warinnington 31 

Name:  Nathaniel Pyne
Birth:  abt 1801
Death:  Jun 1866 - Penzance, Cornwall

[DebbieG]

This would be the Nathaniel baptised at Holbourn
NATHANIEL PYNE
 Birth:  03 AUG 1799   
Christening:  24 JAN 1800   Saint Andrew, Holborn, London, England
Father:  JOHN PYNE 
Mother:  ELIZABETH 


He is the son of Francis John Pyne and his second wife Elizabeth Harvey White and brother of William Pyne the solicitor, who was at one time a friend of Disraelis (I have more notes on this William but they aren’t needed here).

Francis John Pyne was married 3 times
1st (1791) to Priscilla Darnell - 1 daughter Priscilla Pyne (b1792)
2nd to Elizabeth Harvey White, they had John Pyne (b1797)
               William Pyne (from Jeremy)
               Nathaniel Pyne (b 1799)
               Elizabeth Pyne (b1800)
               Thomas Pyne (b 1803)
               Frederick Pyne (b 1804)
3rd (1809)  to Mary Dillman Engleheart - this was the will that Ros found, it names her 4 children including daughter Marianne, - who never married and lived most of her life in Leamington, though in 1901 she is with her sister-in-law Sophia in Kew. Whilst it is just possible that Francis John could also have had Eliza and George, I can’t see that he is likely to have had 2 daughters called Marianne.  He died in 1830 and is buried in Bunhill Fields London - there is no will for him in the PCC.