Marianne Caldwell/William Lionel Pyne

[Jeremy Pyne]

Dear all
Not sure if you had picked up another Pyne Caldwell link, ie a marriage of a William Pyne and a Frances Caldwell Hales in St James, Westminster in 1842. Found reference in the BMD register and also in Moses Taylor Pyne's work. The latter reports them as having one son Leonard Hill Pyne.

The Caldwell middle name may be a co-incidence but thought you might be interested.

Have tried to tie in William Lionel in my records but no joy. The refererences to Hanover Square, Chelsea and Brighton above does seem to associate him with members of the East Down family with Devon roots . But he does not seem to tie in with the family as documented by Moses Taylor.
The closest link is with William, born 1798, baptised Hendon ,son of John Francis Pyne. William was a solicitor, and practiced for a time in Hanover Square, he married first, in Chelsea a Leah McQueen daughter of a family with links to Brighton, had four children , then married a second time  to an Elizabeth Kirkpatrick in1836 and had 5 more children..

All the best

Jeremy

[DebbieG]

Hi Jeremy

Yes I saw that marriage - they also had a license in the lists I was looking at

but I traced the Frances Cauldwell Hales line back and it doesn't seem to join into the Ralph Cauldwell one anywhere close.  She was the daughter of George Hales who married Frances Caldwell in 1811 in Herefordshire,  Frances Caldwell was the daughter of Henry Caldwell & Susanna and Henry seems to have been born in 1755 in Herefordshire,  the other Cauldwell line comes from Norfolk.   

There is a memorial to Frances & her son Leonard Pyne in Herefordshire

FRANCES CALDWALL PYNE / wife of WILLIAM PYNE Esq / daughter of the above / GEORGE and FRANCES HALES / Who departed this life / May 11 1854 aged 43 years / Also of
LEONARD HILL PYNE / only child of the above / WILLIAM and FRANCES CALDWALL PYNE / who departed this life / October 29th 1859 aged 16 years.


Yes I have looked at the John Francis Pyne line you mention (he was married 3 times as well),  but this lot deffinitly seem to have a link to Ireland as well,  very confusing

 
DebbieG

[heywood]

One (of the many) things which are niggling at me is the mention so specifically in the census of Merrion Square by Marianne/Mary Ann.
1) It could be the truth.
2) She could be saying that because she is creating a privileged life for herself and her children.
3) There is a link to Merrion Square with Elizabeth, daughter of Arthur Pyne but this has been discounted- a legitimate link has anyway.

Over all my doubts though, is the knowledge that Rowena married so well and one can't imagine that her background would not have been investigated/ of interest to her in-laws before her marriage.
Enjoy your day/week
Kath

[Hungry Pelican]

Yes, and also Julia married Edward Colebrooke Miller whose grandfather was Major General James Miller, R.A. and great grandfather was Robert Colebrooke of Chilham Castle, Kent - a family of wealthy bankers.

By the way, the two witnesses on Julia and Edward's marriage cert. in July 1860, are Rowena Maria Pyne and George Caldwell.  Does anybody know the wherabouts of George at the time of the 1861 census?

Ros.

[DebbieG]

I agree,  with the several 'good' marriages involved in this family,  and the subsequent career of William Rowland,  Marianne must have had either a good background herself,  or if it is dodgy the 'partner' involved in the earlier offspring would have to be very high up indeed. 

Hmmm who was hanging around Brighton in the late 1830s 

DebbieG

[heywood]

Yes, and also Julia married Edward Colebrooke Miller whose grandfather was Major General James Miller, R.A. and great grandfather was Robert Colebrooke of Chilham Castle, Kent - a family of wealthy bankers.

By the way, the two witnesses on Julia and Edward's marriage cert. in July 1860, are Rowena Maria Pyne and George Caldwell.  Does anybody know the wherabouts of George at the time of the 1861 census?

Ros.

sorry Ros! I only mention Rowena because all the references online in 'books' are to her! Do you know I had completely forgotten the 'Rowland' part of the name which Debbie refers to, although that could be just a first name but there is also the Deedes part of Isabella's name 
Can't see George in 1861 and I know he has beensearched for before. He died in Kent 2 years later, I think it says somewhere. I wonder if he was in Ireland? No way of finding out though 
Ah well- more searching. 

[Hungry Pelican]

Marianne Caldwell's Will:
She leaves an estate worth £4,114 10s 10d which includes two properties: "All that messuage Number 33 Thurloe Square, Brompton in the County of Middlesex" (see link)

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=50009#s13

and "All that leasehold messuage No. 6 Queens Terrace Windsor"

The only recipients in the will are:

"My two daughters Isabella the wife of The Reverand Samuel Buxton Smyth Rector of East Hanningfield near Chelmsford in the County of Essex and Rowena Maria the wife of Thomas Joseph Hercy of Cruchfield House Bracknell in the County of Berks Esquire"

also "Charles Isham Caldwell who will attain the age of Nineteen years on the thirteenth July One thousand eight hundred and eighty three"

She doesn't mention her relationship to Charles.

She states:  "I have made no provision by this my will for any members of my family other than those before mentioned as I consider my Son William Rowland Pyne and my Daughters Julia Augusta the wife of Edward Colebrooke Miller Esquire Sophia Esther wife of Captain Adolph Von Grimm Anna Maria wife of Thomas French Laurence Esquire and Georgiana the wife of Bertram Mitford Pocklington Esquire are already well provided for"

She also mentions something about a Deed Poll under the hands and seals of her late husband (George Caldwell) and herself and of George Pyne and William Francis Ellaby dated 4 July 1846 and Indenture of Settlement dated 1844 made between George Pyne of the first part, herself as the second part and George Watts Ellaby and John Burnet Applebee of the third part.

Disappointedly, nothing about William Lionel Pyne.
 

[DebbieG]

OOOOH - thank you so much for coming back and telling us - I was wondering how you were getting along.  I have been looking a bit more at the various branches of the Pyne family trying to see where these might fit.

The will is really interesting,  have I missed something or have we gained two daughters,  Sophia Esther & Anna Maria?  and lost Louisa.

Some more names to play with anyway.

 

DebbieG

[Hungry Pelican]

Hi Debbie, Yes I hadn't got anything new until yesterday when we went to the Principal Registry at High Holborn to get the will.  I was wondering if anybody knew about Anna Maria and Sophia Esther and also Charles Isham Caldwell.

I have found out Sophia Esther Caldwell was Christened on 14 July 1844, Gravesend, Kent. - Mother Marianne, Father George Caldwell.   Also a birth register Mar. 1/4 1844, Kensington, Middx. I haven't found her marriage yet.

There's an Anna Maria Caldwell birth registered Sept. 1/4, 1845 ,Kensington, Middx. and she marries Thomas French Laurence Set. 1/4, 1873, Windsor, Berks.  I've found her in the 1881 cencus and 1891 census, but the birth date is given as about 1848.

Regards, Ros.