Marianne Caldwell/William Lionel Pyne

[heywood]

Hello everybody,

I feel there's a bit if a lull now - we have nothing much to go on really now so it is difficult. Also, I always feel that as the relatives aren't mine, there is a sense of intrusion into someone else's heritage so it's knowing when to stop interfering!
I would really need someone to work through all these new names- I am quite lost.
Re the Claggetts:
The Thomas W named earlier is I think the nephew to Horatio who is of some importance here but Thomas may be nothing to do with the search. However he does seem to be the administrator in the matter of creditors etc.
Horatio however b 1798 is of an age to have fathered the children of Eliza as has been mooted in the past.
Additionally he is the son in law of a man who had 3 illegitimate children and that makes me wonder if Charles Day is the father of either Eliza and co (or Eliza's children)? However somewhere in the legal references I think I read that they had guardians so may be named somewhere. Just remembered too that he died 1833ish and I think some of Eliza's children were born later than this?
Caroline Day was born c 1812.
Horatio and Caroline were married by 1841.

Lastly, I wondered if the will of Lt Pyne could be traced. I don't think it is on NA site as he died post 1858 and am unsure as to whether they have those wills.

I accept that this - like lots of other stuff we have posted is very tenuous but at the moment that's where I am going. Illegitimacy must not have been the stigma we imagine if that is the case with Eliza, Marianne and families.

regards
heywood

[JustinL]

Please do carry on 'interfering'. I am indebted to all of you for the numerous new revelations regarding the Pyne family. These are people who lived and died a long time ago, so I feel no sense of intrusion whatsoever.

Thomas Wiliam was Horatio Clagett's elder brother; both being the sons of Horatio Clagett senior, who was born in Maryland in 1756, fought in the American Revolutionary War, but settled in England after 1783.

Which Lt. Pyne are you referring to? Lt. Frederick P did die too late for the will to be available online. I was wondering whether other naval records regartding pay, pensions, etc. may cast some more light on his background. Might it even confirm the existence of the elusive Capt. Charles Horatio Pyne?

Lt. George Pyne, however, died in 1857. There is no will for him either, although a search through the NA catalogue does reveal a file about monies owed to his widow.

Although illegitimacy may well be the answer, we cannot loose sight of the fact that many records are not available online. Lack of Irish records and limited access to other colonial records really hamper the research.

Re the 1841 census and Eliza, I have tentatively accepted that the married woman living on independent means at 27 Grosvenor Place (Belgravia) is my Eliza. If I can eventually find a baptism for Virgina (b. 1832/33), it may confirm this.

One point I forgot regarding the theory of William Henry Pyne being Eliza's and Marianne's father. I would have thought that Eliza would have named one of three sons William.

All the best to you all,

Justin

[heywood]

Thanks Justin
Phew! That's OK then!

I did mean Lt Frederick Pyne's will which would have to be applied for. Thanks re explanation of Horatio and Thomas William - that T W is the father of the younger Horatio. I had seen references to them in the London Gazette which I find an interesting site!

good luck
Kath

[DebbieG]

Hi

I haven't given up yet,  still hunting around.  Did Ros say she was going to Kew?  This document might be worth a look,  the reference is for a Chancery Court Pleading,  I am not sure what sort of info might be in it,  but the on-line site says it is sotred off site and requires 3 days notice for production


 C 14/887  Pleadings (by P plaintiffs) started or revived in 1848. Described at item level 
 
 
Scope and content 1848 P87.
Pyne v Applebee. Bill, answer, replication
Covering dates 1848
Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal
Held by The National Archives, Kew 
 

DebbieG

[Hungry Pelican]

Hi everyone,  Yes, I'm going to Kew next week.  At least the parking there is free unlike last week when I went to the Principal Registry in Holborn, which cost me £8 congestion charge and £32 car parking, plus petrol and 1.3/4 hrs. to get there!  Did manage to visit Dr. Johnson's house and see Dickens' "Hard Times" at the Brides Lane Theatre all in the same day though, which made up for it.

I'll see if I can sort this Chancery Court Pleading thing - I'll ring them in advance if that's possible. I shall also be looking at the Death Registers of Eliza and Marianne (hopefully).

Thanks for all your hard work.  It is really appreciated.  I seem to be lacking one or two links in connection with Caldwell/Pyne.  I need to catch up!  I have the following - can anyone please supply me with any others:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,189087.msg928339.html#msg928339
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271110.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,322249.15.html

Thank you once again. Ros

[JustinL]

Hello Ros,

Are you planning to spend the day at Kew? Would you have the time (or the inclination) to search through some naval records for William Lionel and Charles Horatio? I was wondering how time-consuming it would be to look through pay and/or pension records.

I'm still just clinging on to the belief that these two men did exist.

Justin

[Hungry Pelican]

Hi Justin,

I'll add it to my list!  I never seem to get on very well with the Navy or Army Lists.  I've looked recently through the Index Cards for Royal Naval Officers and Royal Artillery Officers for William Lionel and others and found nothing!  I'll have a look for Charles Horatio though.

We are going to Hawthorn Hill, Bray, Berks. on Thursday to look for Cruchfield House where Marianne lived for a while and died.  Might at some stage go to the Berkshire Record Office in Reading to look at, amongst others things, burials - to see where she was buried.  One of William Rowland's daughters and two of Julia Augusta's sons were born in the Windsor area and there's also a Louisa Avoca Caldwell who died in the Reg. Dist. of Windsor, so I would like to see that.

I'm not giving up hope either.  William Rowland named his first son Lionel and Julia named her second son Lionel also.

Regards. Ros.

[JustinL]

Thanks, Ros.

I have trawled through the Navy Lists for most of the 1830s and found nothing. If CHP was in the navy it must have been somewhat earlier. I am not entirely sure when the Navy Lists start. Having read through the research guides on the NA site, I think the pay or pension records may prove more fruitful.

I agree the children seemed pretty convinced that they had been told the names of their real fathers.

I do envy you being able to go to all these places. I now have a new job, but it will be up in Heysham near Morecambe - a long, long way from London.

Rgds,

Justin

[heywood]

Congratulations on the new job Justin! A bit of a change but you must follow the work.
Kath