Marianne Caldwell/William Lionel Pyne

[heywood]

I am a bit concerned here (understatement I think  ) I am just reading an old thread of Justin's
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,189217.0.html
where he mentions the people in Eliza's will and there is no mention of Marianne - unless at that time he omitted it because it was of no consequence.

If Marianne reported the death- and was her sister, surely she would be in the will somewhere- even it was just a token.
Eliza died between April and June 1843 and Marianne was married in May 1843 - so Eliza must have died April 1st-May if Marianne registered death as Pyne.

[heywood]

and here's the other thread from that period where Justin mentions Isabella Deedes Pyne and Mary Ann http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,189087.msg928339.html#msg928339

It's handy to have these together because of the previous research - this was from 2006 and you never know something may have come up in the interveing years 

[Hungry Pelican]

Hi, 

Marianne is registered as "Caldwell" and "Sister of the deceased".  Eliza left fatherless children and Marianne had just married someone who must have been fairly well-off, so perhaps it's not quite so unusual.  Also, if Marianne was there during her illness, Eliza may have given her some keepsake beforehand. Only surmising!

[heywood]

I can accept that - especially if it gives her name so we can definitely assume that Marianne and Eliza are sisters.
So... going back to those baptisms of Eliza's children and Isabella Deedes Pyne.
Emma, Charles and Frederick (Eliza) and Isabella (Mary Ann) were all baptised on the same day with no fathers given.
This could mean that they were illegitimate or some other reason (absent in military or similar) but it is odd.
It's all a big coincidence that two Pyne sisters would marry two Pyne men - but again it is possible.
Emma and Virginia are traceable in the censuses and both marry well as do Marianne's children so again things are contradictory. It doesn't seem possible that the children are all illegitimate with whatever connotations that would bring.
I have just seen 1861- Augustus F Pyne b 1826 London a Lieutenant in the Navy  - I wonder if he could be Frederick?
I also saw earlier an account in an Irish paper of 1850 there was a Charles Pyne -Navy being court marshalled in Portsmouth - I think or Plymouth but nothing else.
Justin's ancestor is Virginia- I wonder if her marriage certificate has her father mentioned?
Well that's about it for now- a real puzzle but so interesting.
Goodnight
Kath

[Hungry Pelican]

Hi Kath,

Thank you for that.

I haven't looked into the "Eliza" side of the family at all yet, so cannot confirm anything there, but now I know she was Marianne's sister I will do so.  My husband is descended from Marianne and William Lionel Pyne, so that is where my main interest lies at the moment.

I forgot to tell you that Justin gives George Pyne's (possibly Eliza and Marianne's brother, but cannot be proved as yet) father as George Pyne - occupation civil servant, India and the witnesses as no-one recognisable.  Perhaps - only perhaps - William Lionel Pyne was out there in some occupation too.  Maybe there is a record out there somewhere?

We are hoping to track down a will for Marianne Caldwell and are going initially to Kew in the next few days where I believe they have an index of post 1858 wills.

Ros.

[JustinL]

Hello Kath and Ros,

It's very good of you both to give my side of the Pyne family so much thought. I don't want to draw the attention away from Ros's original posting.

Virginia's marriage cert names her father as Horatio Pyne, gentlemen.

Eliza's death cert describes as the widow of Charles Horace Pyne, late a Captain in the Royal Navy.

Despite many attempts no trace has been found of this man.

Justin

[heywood]

Hello you two,
no I don't want to stray away from Marianne but I was hoping that Eliza and then perhaps George would come together with Marianne and hey presto an answer! Wouldn't life be easy if it were so. 
Sorry to mither - is George in the will specifically named as George Pyne, brother and not just brother George (surname not given).
Ooohh - it's all so mysterious!
Were the witnesses ever named in Marianne and George Caldwell's marriage?
Kath

[JustinL]

Hello Kath,

I quite understand your logic, it's the same logic that I've been following in vain. How can a family be so elusive?

The brother was named as George Pyne. You'll find a thread a couple years ago now when I received a lot of help searching for George Pynes in the '41 census. The numerous searches never yielded a clear result.

For what it's worth the witnesses at Marianne's and George's wedding in Dublin were Stephen Alcock, who was a boot & shoe maker in Dublin, and Thomas Firke (not very clear) of White Bear, Piccadilly.

Marianne claimed to have been born in Merrion Square here in Dublin. I shall try to investigate that further.

Justin

[heywood]

Glad the logic is coming over!! I had seen Merrion Square and found a reference - somewhere on here- where there was an Elizabeth Pyne - married and I think died but not connected I have come to realise - I was wondering if they were connected to Arthur Pyne and Ballyvolane House (?) Cork - but alas!!