McMinn Mystery Deepens...

[Daisy Loo]

Having established that Elizabeth McMinn was born in 1855, in Clonmel, Tipperary Ireland (so she was Irish, not Scottish!... or 50/50!!) (Sources: 1911 census, and baptism record from IFHS), and that her parents were Alexander McMinn (BR & MC) and Bridget Cleary (BR), i think it best to start a new thread...(and lock the old one)

But the links to the two other threads are here:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,352924.0.html - Was She Scottish or Irish?

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,331644 - McMinn Mystery, Help!

Great appreciation to Kath, Monica & Jap & Andy for all the sources and help and Dimps...who has sent me a pic of the address where Elizabeth was living in 1901 and Caroline was visiting as below. (always nice to see a picture...makes things a bit more real somehow)

Continued in next post....to make it shorter 

[Daisy Loo]

Okay, so I am as mad as Monica  and I took a deep breath, and looked at all the birth records in Clonmel for McMinn.  Some interesting things turned up....

The baptism records were for: Elizabeth b.1855, Isobell b.1857, Matilda b.1857, Alexander b.1859, John Alexander b.1860, William b.1862, Emily Jane b.1864, and George Charles b.1870

So, we know that Elizabeth's parents were Alexander & Bridget CLEARY...
Isobell's parents were Alexander McMinn & Bridget ?  in a footnote it says "Name of mother not easy to read could be Nulty or Isobell is entered as an Adult after mothers name"
Matilda's parents were Alexander and Bridget CLEARY(so a definate sister for Elizabeth...)
Alexander & John Alexander also of Alexander & Bridget CLEARY, so maybe one of them did die, there was just about a year between them!)
William - Alexander & Bridget McGRATH
Emily Jane (and here is where it gets most interesting!) - Alexander McMinn & Bridget McGRATH...but there is a civil record for her as well...which I had to look at, and glad that I did...her father's occupation is on the civil record, and guess what it is? Sergeant Major Pensioner...and the address is Royal Artillary Barracks.  What's more is, that the informant on the civil record is Isobell, listed as her sister, (she would have been 7!) and on the church baptism, the Sponsor is a Catherine McMinn.
Lastly, George Charles - Alexander and Bridget CLEARY

So first question....were there really two Alexander McMinn's both married to a Bridget, both in the RA, and both apparently Sergeant Major's in Clonmel around the same time?

[MonicaL]

Just about to log off when I saw the link to your new post 

Too tired  to get my head round it now - but interesting entry on the civil birth record for Emily Jane - don't understand it but too many co-incidences. We still  have the issue of the different surname for Bridget mother (Cleary/McGrath). From this entry, it would seem the family were resident at the Royal Artillery Barracks at Clonmel and Alexander Snr. was by now retired.

Monica

Added: Great photo Dimps!

[Daisy Loo]

My purpose now is to find out:
 1. When the family came over to England, and who came over to England,
2. Try and get to the bottom of the Bridget CLEARY/McGRATH mystery...are they two different women, or one and the same?
3. What rank was Alexander McMinn Snr really?
4. Try and find out more about the Royal Hibernian School, and the registration of the boys.

I have been chasing down Matilda McMinn now.  I was looking at the record for a marriage in 1874...I think I'm going to order that cert.

Can I order the MC with just her name?

I am getting a bit clearer now on what i want to find out...and have been looking at all sorts of sites. Go to bed my dear!  This one will wait

(Edited for clarification)

[Daisy Loo]

There were 2 options for Matilda McMinn: William BRUNT or Henry HEATH in Woolowich 1874.

I couldn't find an Matilda BRUNT anywhere, but I did find a Matilda HEATH in 1881, in Hackney, as a servant, and as a widower at the age of 23.  Says she was born in Woolwich. (RG11; Piece: 312; Folio: 101; Page: 50)

I then found a death for a Henry Heath in 1875, in Hackney.

[Daisy Loo]

Have been doing a bit of rummaging around   Thought I would just put an update here of what I have done so far, and also some of the suggestions that Monica has pm'd me.

First of all, it appears that Alexander McMinn Snr married Bridget Cleary in 1846 in a protestant church.  Monica pm'd me a new link for LDS records for Ireland, and I found the index there, and I have emailed the GRO Dublin to see if I can get a copy of the marriage cert.  I have also rang the Old St Mary's Church, in Clonmel and left a message.  (from the marriage cert, I'll get the bride and grooms father's, plus the occupation of the groom)

Monica has been looking in TNA for me, but so far, nothing doing!

George Charles (brother to Elizabeth) in 1901 was a Company Segeant Major in the RFA, and he was actually at the base...i wonder if his attestation records still exist, and whether it would have details of his father's rank etc.

Monica has raised a good question...

Bridget McMinn was possibly found in Woolwich with her son George, and another boy Philip, also listed as her son. (RG11 Piece: 743 Folio: 113 Page: 39)  Monica suggested that Philip (as he appears to have been registered Alexander Philip in Gravesend) could possibly be a son of one of her daughter's.  Perhaps of the elusive Caroline?

I am still trying to ascertain: when they (and who) came to England, who was Caroline, and where was she prior to 1901, and the biggest question of all who was Alexander McMinn?  (Eventually, I'd like to be able to trace him, if we could only find out a few details on him!)

Finally, I cannot understand this Cleary/McGrath...are there any possible scenarios that they could have been the same woman?

[heywood]

Hello all,
what a great photo!
Also a good summary- can I just ask who is Catherine McMinn - sponsor to Emily Jane-?  Is it Caroline?

good luck and keep us posted - if I have a flash o f inspiration  I'll post but in the meantime wanted to establish my link for notification 

Kath

[Daisy Loo]

- can I just ask who is Catherine McMinn - sponsor to Emily Jane-?  Is it Caroline?

Kath

I am not sure who Catherine McMinn is...this is the first time I have seen a Catherine McMinn pop up in realtion to this family.

I got the marriage certificate for Emily Jane today.  Date of Marriage: October 1885, Emily Jane McMinn aged 21 Spinster Address: 37 King Street: father: Alexander McMinn - Occupation of father: Segeant Major, Royal Artillery  (she married a William Foster)

I am also in contact now with St Peter & St Paul's church, where all these children got baptised.  I have asked that records be checked for more McMinn baptisms (if any). I have also asked if any light could be shed on the McGrath/Cleary mystery.  Just another point that the lady made, was that these records held by the parish are all in latin.

Lastly, with regard to these baptisms...Isabell interests me...as she shows up as an informant on the baptism of Emily Jane, and also for the fact that written on own baptism record, is possbly ADULT....

The theory that is playing in my mind is this...Alexander & Bridget were married in a protestant church/civil marriage.  Could Isobel have been born, and not baptised until she was a lot older (she was baptised only 3 months after Matilda McMinn) in 1857.  Could Isobel then be our Caroline?  (either Isobel Caroline, or Caroline Isobel, but Caroline dropped as not Rc name?)

Any thoughts?

[heywood]

Not sure at all here- I would have thought that they would have had children baptised young- as they had the others. These are just my musings.
They married in a church linked with Scotland (from memory) and Isobel has Scottish links.
In our time now, baptism in a Christian church is recognised for a Catholic marriage so there is no cause to be 'baptised again'.
Re the names - as neither Isobel or Caroline seem like Catholic names not sure re adopting one or the other would make a difference but being married to someone who has two names but was always known by his middle name- families do that sort of thing 
Sorry to ask this 'cos I've forgotten- I know that one Army query was unsuccessful but is there a possibility with Royal Artillery records?
cheers
Kath