William and Matilda Gwynne

[seahall]

Hi again Rockford. 

I can not thank you enough on mine and especially my friend Patricias behalf
for the amazing amount of information you have shared with her in an instant.

I have been helping people to trace their Family Histories for over 24 years and
feel you have been more than generous with the information you have given
Patricia so quickly.

I will try and get some original documents to share with you so it is not just one way. 

Thanks again.

Also to Rootschat for enabling us to make the connection.

Sandy

[ScottG]

Hello from New Zealand.  Although 13 years on since this subject was last discussed, I too am interested in William and Matilda and their son James who married Elizabeth (Elisabath, Betsy, Bessie) Dale.

Is there any update on the information of 2009 and the record that substantiates it?

Happy Christmas one and all
Scott

[Rockford]

Hello Scott

It is indeed a long time since we last discussed William and Matilda Gwynne! I don't think Sandy (Seahall) and I have been in touch since.

The record that confirmed that James Gwynne (son of William and Matilda) was born in Ireland was the 1871 Census, when he and his wife Betsy/Bessie/Elizabeth Dale (also born Ireland) were living at West Glentore Cottage, New Monkland Parish.  This is north of Airdrie, and just to the north of the village of Greengairs.   They are transcribed as James and Elizabeth Gwynne.

The various misspellings of Gwynne can make it really hard to find the family on the ScotlandsPeople site

The records / transcriptions I have seen are:

1849 Marriage record for James Gwynne and Betsy Dale in Airdrie/New Monkland.  This is likely to be a record of Banns being proclaimed rather than the actual marriage, but the date on the record is 31/07/1849.  James is indexed as James Giveen.  The actual handwriting isn't much better, and could be read as Giveen, Gwan, Gwiin, Gween.

1851 Census [James / Betsy]
From Ancestry, they are listed as born Ireland, no place given.  They are listed as Quin, and Betsy is recorded as Elizabeth.  They at at East Blacktongue [which is near Wester Glentore] in New Monkland Parish.

1861 Census [James / Betsy]
This is an Ancestry transcription, and also states both James and Betsy [transcribed as Bessie this time] were born in Ireland, but no specific place given.  They are living at 48 Aitchison Street, Airdrie.

Ancestry has indexed this record as Quen, and ScotlandsPeople has indexed them as Quin.

1871 Census - as noted at the top of the message.

James dies in 1878

1881 Census [Betsy]
Betsy is the head of the household, living at 61 Greengairs, New Monkland parish, with 3 daughters, 1 son, 1 granddaughter, and a lodger.  Birthplace is again just given as Ireland and she is transcribed as Eliz Gwynn.

1891 Census [Betsy]
This time, Betsy has been transcribed by Ancestry as Elizabeth Guyne, living at Blacktongue Rows, with her son Joseph and three grandchildren.  Birthplace is again just Ireland.

Betsy died in 1908 at Larkhall, so she must be on the 1901 Census somewhere.  However, my notes show that I hadn't found her at the time I was in touch with Sandy, and a quick look this afternoon hasn't turned up a 1901 record for her either.  I'll keep looking, and update this message if I find one!

I hope that makes sense and is of some use to you. 

Best wishes

Brian

[seahall]

HI Scott-Rockford.

Good to see you have a connection to each other.

Sadly (Patricia) Patti died in 2010 and I miss her still daily.

Sandy

[ScottG]

Hi Brian

Family research keeps trucking on.  There is no doubt about that. Sad to see that Patricia has passed on.  I sadly made the mistake on starting on this journey too late in life to gain knowledge from my parents and elderly relatives.   People with an interest in genealogy are so very very helpful ... none more so than yourself.
I have printed off your reply and will digest it over the next couple of days.  Have a happy Christmas ... I will be in touch
Regards
Scott
from way down under

[Rockford]

Hello

Glad to have been able to pass the information on.

@Seahall - I know from our past communication how much your friendship with Patti meant to you, and it's lovely that you remember her often.  I think I remember you saying how surprised she was to see herself as a young girl in one of the wedding photos I sent you, and I'm sure you will have many memories of her.

My great, great grandmother was Agnes Gwynne [c1854 - 1912], the daughter of James and Betsy.  I think it's wonderful that 100 years after she died, family connections are still being made, as these unexpected contacts are a part of this hobby that I really enjoy.

I meant to say in my email yesterday that I think I may have found a brother of James Gwynne living nearby in Airdrie.

A William Gwin [indexed by ScotlandsPeopl as GUIM], aged 27 married Margaret Grant, a 27 year old widow, on 11th August 1857 at Airdrie. William was a Miner, and gave his parents as William Gwin, Soldier, and Matilda Gwin [no other maiden name given].  Margaret's parents were Walter Grant and Margaret Millar.  Interesting, Walter is show as "dead", but no such annotation is given for William's parents, indicating that he must have known or believed that they were still alive at that point.

Tracing them through the 1861 Census at Slamannan (where, inexplicably, William is recorded as William Thornton), and 1871 (Greengairs, New Monkland) William is recorded as born in Ireland.

William dies on 14th March 1880 at Baird's Rows, Bothwellpark, and on his death record his father is recorded as William Gwynne, Coal Miner, [deceased], with no mother's details provided.  I haven't traced Margaret Grant's death yet, but in 1881 she has moved to East Lothian and is working as a Farm Servant, with adult daughters Martha, aged 19, and Elizabeth, aged 17.  All three are indexed by Ancestry as GUIEN.

This doesn't add anything re the birthplace discussion for William / Matilda or James / Betsy, but I thought the potential link to William Gwynne who married in 1857 at Airdrie and the reference to his father being a soldier was interesting to mention.

Best wishes

Brian

[KGarrad]

My son-in-law is a Gwynne.
Have traced his line back to Charles Gwynne (b1765, Bridgenorth, Shropshire).
Family were in Oldham by 1891.

[seahall]

Goodness I have just found this link.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01s03/

Interesting reading.

Sandy

[Rockford]

My son-in-law is a Gwynne.
Have traced his line back to Charles Gwynne (b1765, Bridgenorth, Shropshire).
Family were in Oldham by 1891.

Hello,

I'm sure we are all related somehow!

With Gwyn meaning White in Welsh, it does seem that the surname originated there and using some websites that show a 'heatmap' of where the name is most common, Wales and to a much lesser extent, Ireland, seem to be the hotspots.

Although my Gwynne folks have an Irish connection rather than a Welsh one, the reference to William Gwynne being a soldier opens up the possibility that he may have arrived in Ireland from elsewhere.  That's certainly the case with another branch of my family.

Some of my Gwynne relations moved from Kirkcaldy and Stirling to Worcester and Kidderminster in the early 20th century, but I've no evidence yet from any travel the other way.  The attraction for the move south was continued employment in the carpet industry, in which various members of the family had worked in Scotland.

I haven't spent a lot of time trying to established the family tree beyond James Gwynne and Bessie Dale, as the sheer number of permutations of spelling make it very hard to be definitive - especially once the confusion with Quin starts making an appearance!  It makes my research on my Smith line seem so much easier

@Seahall - I hadn't made the connection to the chat earlier in the year on TalkingScot - at least the information I've given in both places matches!

Best wishes

Brian