Smith

[ellie_downunder]

Hi I am trying to research my great grandmother who came out to Australia from Croydon, they also lived at queens rd upper Norwood Her name was Alice Smith her father is supposed to be Reuben Smith, I dont know her mothers name, She married Frederick Bache in 1888 at Bromley, The family story is that she descended from Gypsies and was related to Lee, I dont know if this is true or not but I was wondering if anyone could help me with further information please, Cheers Ellie

Please Note
another researcher has her parents down as Richard Smith,of Sutton Valance and Elizabeth. and Alice Smith being born at cobham,  in 1867but on her Australian death cert it does state Reuben,

[PaulineJ]

Just to see what is 'firm' info and what is family tradition...

When does this Upper Norwood address relate to?
What names witnessed the marriage and how old were the bride & groom,?
      What does that cert give as Father(s)?

When did she emigrate?

Pauline

[Barbara F]

Hi Ellie

I see in the 1891 and 1901 censuses she gives her place of birth as Cudham.

In 1871 there is an Alice Smith of the right age (4) born Cudham with parents Reuben and Elizabeth plus siblings.  Reuben is a labourer.

Do you have access to the censuses? If not I will give you the details.

Barbara

[Barbara F]

In 1861 Reuben and Elizabeth have a brother in law Henry Packman with them.

There is a marriage for a Reuben Smith Sep 1850 Bromley V 83 and I have found an Elizabeth Packman with the same ref.

This marriage would tie in with their eldest child being 9 in the 1861 census.

Barbara

In 1861 Reuben is born Eynsford and Elizabeth in Bromley

[ellie_downunder]

Hi Pauleen, Thank you so much for your reply on my Smith family. First of all I know they were at Queens road upper Norwood in 1903 as my grandfather Alfred Edmund Bache was born there,

I do not have the marriage cert yet as the family came from England and I have just started on the Smith line,
I only have the Australian death cert which stated her father as being Reubin Smith,

I am a little unsure of myself when it comes to the British counties, all of a sudden I feel like a frog in a big pond again lol I know my Grandfather was a child when they came to Australia,

They also had another child with them who is a bit of a puzzle I don't know if he is related or they adopted him I just know his name was John Starmore b 29th of Nov 1907, London.
and they brought him up, They left one elder daughter Elizabeth Bache  behind and she married ? O'connell

I don't know if the family story is true or not but I know I am about to go on a interesting journey to find out and if its not at least I will have learned a little more 

Cheers Ellie

[ellie_downunder]

Thank You so much Barbara for the information, It sounds like it could be them as it was stated her death as her father being Reubin Smith, ( I am doing the happy dance and its not a good look  )

Another descendant from the US has submitted her to Family search as Alice Smith born Cobham 1867 father Richard Mother Elizabeth, I was a little worried when I saw it and decided
not to take the lazy way out lol,

I would love the information on her siblings if you don't mind
giving them to me I have a few British cds, although I have not had much luck with them, but now I know who to look for,
I have the Surrey Marriage index but its only to 1837 and mainly rural, and the London church registers,

I have a lot of Australian ones if anyone ever wants me to help
them with look ups I would be happy to do so,

Thank you again for the information I am so grateful for any help as I have dreaded trying to do the Smiths, its a huge name to research. I am also sorry I did not reply earlier it was only when I was trying to delete some of the junk from my mail box that I saw yours and Pauline's reply.............Cheers Ellie

[Barbara F]

Hi ellie

1861
Cudham (address very faint but looks like ?? Cottage, Green?)

Reuben Smith Head Mar 46 labourer b Eynsford
Elizabeth Wife Mar 40 b Bromley
Herbert Son 17 Labourer
Matilda Dau 12
Reuben Son
Alice Dau 4
Ann Dau 2

All the children born Cudham

Ref is RG10 875 f 13

1871
Biggin Hill Cottage, Westerham Road, Cudham

Reuben Smith Head Mar 36 labourer b Eynsford
Elizabeth Wife Mar 30 b Bromley
Frederick Son 9
Herbert Son 7
Martha Dau 5
Matilda Dau 2
Henry Packham Brother in Law Mar 38 Labourer b Kent Famborough

All the children born Cudham

Ref is RG9  462 f 47

Will check 1851 and 1881.

Barbara

[Barbara F]

1841
Crockenhill, Eynsford

Thomas Smith 55 Fruiterer
Philadelphia 45
James 20 Ag Lab
Reuben 15 Ag Lab
Richard 14 Ag Lab
Henry 11 Ag Lab
Sarah 15
Martha 7

All born in county.

HO107  482/13 f 23

Remember that in the 1841 census ages were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 so the 2 15 year olds could be aged 15-19.

I can see Reuben and Elizabeth still in Eynsford in 1881 with some of their children but not Alice.  You can view that census at http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp

I have had no luck in finding Reuben and Elizabeth in 1851 yet - will look some more!

Barbara

[Barbara F]

Ellie

Found them!

1851
Cudham

Reuben Smith Head Mar 27 Fruiter of 20 acres 2 labourers b Eynsford
Elizabeth Wife Mar 20 b Bromley
Edward Packman Brother in Law 26 Ag lab b Bromley
Ann Packman Sister 33 b Eynsford
Thomas Packman Nephew 10 months b Cudham

This reinforces the Packman link.

Ref HO107  1606 f 281

If you check the 1881 census you will see that Alice is working as a servant in Bromley.

This does look like the right family but it is always best to confirm with certificates. Alice's marriage cert will confirm the name of her father.

This looks like her birth

Births Sep 1866   Smith  Alice     Bromley  2a 292

The birth cert will give her father's name and her mother's maiden name.

These 2 certificates together with the marriage certificate for Reuben to Elizabeth should tie the family together 

Barbara