ARMSTRONG/SINCLAIR in Dunfermline c. 1830

[fionajka]

Hi all,

I hope everyone is going well as we head towards the Christmas period!

I've been revisiting a family that I haven't been having much luck with and still, can't seem to get any further with them.

I have a child - Isabella Armstrong, born to Thomas Armstrong and Mary Sinclair. Well, I know definitely that Mary is her mother because she is with Isabella and her husband Alexander in the 1881 census as a widow. So we know she was married at some stage. And now that I look at my file I can't see where I got her fathers name from.

I have found Isabella on the 1841 and 1851 census with a William Sinclair and Elspeth Burt. The 1851 census has her listed as his niece, so that would make William Mary's brother. My only problem with this is that his birth is listed as 1782 while Mary's is 1815 - not sure what to make of that. And secondly, who is Elspeth Burt?

I can't find a marriage for Mary Sinclair and Thomas Armstrong, neither can I locate anymore children or find them on any census together as a family.

Can anyone with fresh eyes see anything I'm just not seeing?

Fiona

[mariac]

Hi Fiona,
   Have you had a look on Family Search. There is some information on this family in a pedigree file

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Search/frameset_search.asp

Regards
Mariac

[Jacquie in Canada]

Isabella Armstrong Anderson's marriage and death registration at ScotlandsPeople indicate she was the daughter of Thomas Armstrong, coal miner and Mary Sinclair.

I found a death registration for a Thomas Armstrong at ScotlandsPeople which has some of the names you've mentioned. Here's the information:

Thomas Armstrong, colliery engineman, widower of Euphemia Duff, died 7 Dec 1897 in the Dunfermline poor house. His parents are listed as Thomas Armstrong, coal miner (deceased) and Margaret Burt (deceased). His son, Thomas Armstrong, is the informant.

In the IGI there are baptism entries for four daughters of John and Agnes Burt who were born between 1775 and 1783 in Dunfermline. Two of the daughters are named Margaret and Elspet. Regarding the 1841 census, it is possible that Isabella Armstrong was the grand-niece of Elspeth Burt, rather than William Sinclair or Isabella could have been the grand-niece of both (the enumerators didn't always make the distinction with two generation relationships).

Also in the IGI, there is an entry which indicates that Thomas Armstrong and Euphemia Duff were married 23 Feb 1845 in Dunfermline, Fife. It is possible that Thomas and Mary were "divorced" or that Isabella was their illegitimate child and he later married another woman.

Jacquie

[fionajka]

Hi to you both,

I was considering the illegitimacy element to this tale especially since I haven't been able to find a marriage between Thomas ARMSTRONG and Mary SINCLAIR or any further children between them also.

So to get the picture clear so far...

Isabella ARMSTRONG is daughter to Thomas and Mary born 1838 - 7 years later Thomas marries Euphemia DUFF and have a child Thomas ARMSTRONG. In the meantime, Isabella is living with Elspet BURT and William SINCLAIR the sister of her grandmother pretty much until she marries.

Thomas dies in 1897 after Euphemia and Mary is listed as a widow in 1881 - who does she end up marrying?

So it is quite possible that she is actually the grand niece to Elspet BURT - so what is the relatiionship between her and William SINCLAIR and what is the relationship between William and Isabella's mother, Mary???

Clear as mud!
Fiona

[Jacquie in Canada]

I've been thinking a little more on this and I'm wondering if Thomas who married Euphemia is not Isabella's father. Here's what we know (for clarity I'm going to refer to Thomas who married Euphemia as Thomas the younger and his father as Thomas the elder):

• On Isabella's death registration from 1896 it indicates that her father is deceased but seems to indicate that her mother is still alive as there is no notation after her name.
• Thomas the younger died a year after Isabella.
• On Isabella's marriage registration from 1855 it seems to indicate that her father is alive (no notation otherwise).
• Thomas the elder was married to Margaret Burt, possibly the sister of Elspeth Burt of the 1841 and 1851 census entries.
• Thomas the elder was listed as being a coal miner on Thomas the younger's death registration while Thomas the younger is listed as a colliery engineman.
• Thomas the younger is listed as an engineman/colliery engineman/engine keeper on the census for 1851 through 1881 (he's listed as a labourer on the 1891 census).

Here's a thought... what if it was Thomas' the elder who was the father of Isabella. That fits the information even better. If Thomas the elder was the father that would mean Isabella was Elspet Burt's niece although the connection with William Sinclair is still a bit of a mystery. It also fits with Isabella saying her father was a coal miner rather than engineman. It certainly wasn't/isn't unheard of for older men to marry much younger women.

Jacquie

[fionajka]

Hiya,

I too, was having the thought that Thomas who married Euphemia Duff may not be Isabella's father also. Only because there hasn't been a link between the two as yet - not that I am closing myself off to that possibility.

It certainly could be possible that Thomas (the elder) is her father instead of grandfather but again, how to confirm that he, who married Margaret Burt is her father either, other than the fact that she is with Elspet Burt and William Sinclair.

When did Thomas the elder die? if it is before 1896, then that is a further possibility.

Is there a marriage for Thomas and Mary Sinclair at all anywhere? I can't seem to find one. I haven't looked into the children of Thomas (the elder) and Margaret Burt yet, but will do so now. Where would Isabella's birth fit in with them...was Margaret his first wife then he hooked up with Mary Sinclair perhaps??? I'll look into that too.

Thomas (the younger) and Euphemia look like they went on to have 11 children if all the census records and IGI records are correct beginning in 1842 - although they were married in 1845..another question.

Let's hope we can work out some of the answers - thanks for your help on this one - I'm stumped by it.

Fiona

[fionajka]

I'm also wondering when Margaret ARMSTRONG (BURT) died, if it is before 1838 then we are onto something.

Thomas the younger was b c 1820, so that would make his father, Thomas b c 1800 - I can't see him at all on the census although he should be alive until 1855 at least, when Isabella married. He should have died between then and 1896 - her death hopefully leaving an age too which one can only hope for.

I can't even see a marriage between Thomas and Margaret DUFF in my searches either.... I'm going to have to move onto another line for awhile to stay sane.

Fiona

[Jacquie in Canada]

The plot thickens! I just found a death registration for a Thomas Armstrong, coal miner, married, who died 14 Jul 1860 in Dunfermline. His son, John was the not very helpful informant as there were no parents listed nor was the name of Thomas' wife. This Thomas' age is hard to read but it looks like 46 to me. If that's the case, this Thomas would be much closer in age to Mary.

I have found Thomas and John on the 1841 and 1851 census but no wife is with Thomas on either census.

1841 census - Parknook, Dunfermline, Fife

Thomas Armstrong, 20, coal miner, born in Fife
John Armstrong, 12 months, born in Fife
Janet Armstrong, 60, born in Fife

1851 census - 51 Store Row, Forth Iron Works, Carnock, Fife

Thomas Armstrong, head, 34, ironstone miner, born in Dunfermline
John Armstrong, son, 10, born in Dunfermline

There is a Sinclair family on the same page - Robert Sinclair (32, ironstone miner, Dunfermline), wife Jean (32, Dunfermline), daughter Isabella (10, Carnock) and son Thomas (7, Dunfermline).

I believe I may have found John Armstrong on the 1861 census living with a Sinclair family in Carnock:

No 25 Keepers Row, Carnock, Fife

John Sinclair, head, 52, coal miner, born in Dunfermline
Margaret Sinclair, wife, 52, born in Dunfermline
Grace Sinclair, daughter, 16, domestic servant, born in Dunfermline
George Sinclair, son, 6, born in Carnock
Agnes Sinclair, daughter, 4, born in Carnock
John Armstrong, boarder, 20, coal miner, born in Inverkeithing

Do you have a subscription to Ancestry? There is a private family tree that has John Armstrong in it. I can't tell for certain whether the person knows who John's mother was or what happened to him after 1861. When I did the search for John Armstrong, I included his father's name and put a first name of Mary for a mother and the tree was still in the results. If you don't have access to Ancestry, I could send a message to the person using the connection service for you. The worst thing that could happen, I suppose, is this Thomas Armstrong could be eliminated from consideration.

Jacquie

[fionajka]

Gosh - it is all so convoluted isn't it?

I still cannot find a marriage between Thomas Armstrong and Margaret Burt on familysearch or ancestry - and yes I do have a subscription but the Fife Probate records aren't giving me any joy.

Interesting that you found Thomas and John with no wife, so need to find a Thomas who married c. 1835/40, just before John was born and whose wife died around that time too to see if it is Margaret Burt - although I tend to think not now that the death cert puts his birth around 1815... and it was a Thomas who was born c 1820 whose death cert states parents as Thomas and Margaret.

I wonder if these are three different families - I think I need to chase up the Sinclair line as you have found some in the surrounding area - not that Mary has been easy to locate at all!


Fiona