Moncrieff Sinclair

[daval57]

Hi Ken, Welcome to Rootschat.
I'd forgotten about this thread, it being almost 3 years ago.

Hope you read this Rab.  Did you ever fathom out this particular query?

Dave

[tartanken]

Thanks
I did have contact from Rab last year, as we're on different branches of the same sinclair tree

its all fascinating!
Ken

[Mainmanjim]

Hi, Dave and Ken

I've been gnawing at the bones of Moncrieff by e-mail with Rab for some time, but he hasn't responded for months now. Strange!

We've also gnawed at a lot of other Sinclair bones, especially over the George Sinclair/ Christian Tod - Mary Herron - Mary Temple issues (I think another thread exists somewhere).

Do you know the age of the Moncrieff whom you found on the 1901 census, Ken? Charles Hope Sinclair's brother appears to have been born ca 1830 in Auchtermuchty, and Charles' son was born 18 April 1861 at Dysart. I believe that the younger Moncrieff may have been married in 1884 at Dysart, so I agree with you that if the one you found was single he may well be Charles' brother. Was he a weaver or a potter?

In passing, which Sinclair lines do you both come from? I'm from the Alexander Sinclair/ Agnes Davidson - James Sinclair/ Agnes Adamson line and also related by a circuitous route to Rab.

Small world!

Jim

[tartanken]

Hello Jim
I'm off charles hope sinclairs line - he is my 3rd great grandfather.
I have moncrieff listed as 59 yrs old in 1901 census, single, bricklayers labourer, born kirkcaldy.....

1901 census
87 Lorne street, Dysart

Alexander Martin   Head      married   38   iron moulder      kennoway
Mary Martin   wife      married   36            auchterderran
Alexander Martin   son         15   linoleum tea boy      kirkcaldy
Robert Martin   son         9   scholar         kirkcaldy
Margaret Sinclair   mother in law   married   69   annuitant         auchtermuchty
John Martin   boarder      single   27   linoleum scrap picker   dunfermline
Moncrieff Sinclair   boarder      single   59   bricklayers labourer   kirkcaldy
Alexander Sinclair   boarder      single   30   iron moulder      kirkcaldy

[Mainmanjim]

Hello again, Ken

Thanks for that. Things are starting to add up - I hope.

   Regarding the 1901 census, Mary, wife of Alex Martin, is obviously the 4th child  of Charles Hope Sinclair and Margaret Simpson who is listed as 'mother-in-law' on the 1901 census. Their ages tally with the birth dates that I have.
The Alexander Sinclair, boarder, is by age the brother of Mary and 8th child of CHS and Margaret.

This takes us to Moncrieff who, by his age, is too old to be Alexander's brother and nearer to Margaret's age. He is also single. So, by my reckoning, he must be Margaret's brother-in-law and son of George Sinclair and Mary Temple.
Well done you for finding him.

   In the 1851 census he was lodging  at West Row, Dysart with brother Alexander and his family. His age was given as 20, born Auchtermuchty, occ. handloom weaver. So, 50 years later, he seems to have lost 11 years. Maybe he lied about his age to protect his job, for it wouldn't have been easy for a 70 year old to be a bricklayers labourer. No UB in those days.

As it appears to me, his father George died in June 1830 at Auchtermuchty, at some time after which Mary Temple found work as a schoolmistress in Dysart. So the elder Moncrieff was born either before his father's death or by the end of Spring 1831.

   The 1841 census shows at Relief Wynd, Dysart:-
Mary Sinclair                50 Schoolmistress
Alexander S T Sinclair    14     
Charles Hope Sinclair    12  Apprentice shoemaker
Moncrieff Sinclair           10   
Ann Spalding                  4
Hannah Dougatt           2

This seems to prove that the older Moncrieff was born 1830/31, although I can't find a birth cert for him. He may truly have been born in Auchtermuchty and been registered by his mother somewhere else, as we don't know where she was between 1830 and 1841. Maybe in the turmoil of being left without support she just forgot to register him. Possibly Moncrieff was his second given name.

   The younger Moncrieff married in 1884 and died in 1921, aged 60, at Kirkcaldy Hospital. Death was notified by brother-in-law A. Martin. I haven't found the death of the older Moncrieff although it must have been after the 1901 census.
You've probably worked all this out for yourself, but am I on the right lines?

I haven't found any other Moncrieffs in the Sinclair branches. Do you know of any in Mary Temple's background? Where did the names Charles Hope come from?

   In the course of this I've found my great grandfather's death cert. I believed he died in Leven but it was Kirkcaldy. So, another good bit of info for me!

   It seems we're connected through the George Sinclair/ Catherine Suttie family tree and I'm a generation older than you.

Good to chat

Jim

[tartanken]

Hi Jim
I think you're right about moncrieff.
re mary temple, i have her parents as george temple and mary watson - thats all i have.

I had the details of the 1841 census but not the 1851 -do you have that?
in 1851 charles hope sinclair is residing in leslie

1851 census - Charles Sinclair
2 newtown, Leslie

William Wilkie - 60, married, shoemaker
Helen Duncan, 54, married, wife
Charles Sinclair, 22, unmarried, servant, shoemaker
David Tollock, 20, unmarried, servant, shoemaker

i dont have moncrieffs death either - thats an interesting point re his given name - maybe he was registered under something else?

Ken

[Mainmanjim]

Hello again. Ken

Sounds like someone needs to delve into the roots of Mary Temple. She was obviously a lady of learning and I've wondered whether the Hope came from Charles Hope of Hopetoun House - no relation - but aspiration or a young girl's dream. The family was prominent in her childhood days.
What I know is her father was George Temple, shipbuilder, Leith.

Then marriage to
GEORGE SINCLAIR   26 FEB 1826   Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian OPR

Death record
Mgt TEMPLE Dysart,Parkhead DoInt: 3 Jun 1847   Age: 57   OPR 426-8

You asked for details of the1851 census :-
Parish Dysart,  Parly. Burgh Dysart, village of West Gallatown
3? West Row
Name       Rel  Status Age   Occ           Place of birth
Alexander Sinclair head mar 24     potter                 Leith, Midlothian
Isabella Sinclair      wife mar 28                                Dysart,Fife
Alexander Sinclair    son         2                             Dysart
George Sinclair        son          2mos                       Dysart
Moncrieff Sinclair  lodger unm 20 Handloom weaver  Auchtermuchty
William Cooper     lodger unm 18 potter                    England

I trust this all helps

Jim
 
Thanks for the 1851 info on Charles. He returned to an old Sinclair stamping ground - Leslie, probably through family connections.

[tartanken]

Hello Jim
I've come across a 'sinclair' in the 1861 census unmarried, born kirkcaldy aged 28. the index lists hims as Thoms Sinclair
the print on scotlands people is poor.

25 coal wynd, kirkcaldy

Thomas Sinclair lodger unmarried 28 agrictural labourer kirkcaldy. there are 3 other unrelated people in the house all listed as lodgers so it could have been some kind of dosshouse.
I havent looked at the births to check it out but its a possibility?

Ken

Image removed. Please do not post whole certificates(copyright)
small parts of image may be shown for handwriting recognition
Thank you - ev[/blue]

[Mainmanjim]

Hello, Ken

Yes, it is poor quality but I've magnified it and the name is Thomas.
The only Thomas of this era that I have, was born 19 July 1835 at Leslie, a twin son of David Sinclair and Elizabeth Donaldson. That's from the Alexander Sinclair and Agnes Davidson branch and not through the branch that leads to the Moncrieffs.
If it is the above Thomas then it helps fill a blank for me. I've always wondered what happened to him. But there's a 2 year age gap, and the one you found was allegedly born in Kirkcaldy.

Jim