Need help deciphering shorthand doc

[esdel]

But, but, but!

The lady from Germany, reply #1, gave you the answer - it is in German and you will find help perhaps in a German museum.

esdel

[SaxonbyChemnitz]

Hi,
I ask the Saxony Museum in Dresden, we must wait, perhaps they can help.
By Lutz, a man!!!!!!

[HeatherLynne]

It does look very much like a form of Pitman shorthand but I can't read any words at all (I learnt New Era in 1978-1980). 

However there are many 'x' which was used to denote a full stop and also two little strokes close together beneath an outline (looks a bit like a little 11) which denoted the word was a proper noun to be transcribed with a capital letter.  I am surprised that '@' appears several times though as that would take much longer to write than the outline for 'at' which is just a vertical stroke.  Maybe '@' is the writer's own shorthand for something or a place that often crops up when they're writing shorthand.

Hope you find out what it says, it's tantalising when it looks so clear but is totally untranscribable 
Heather

[LizzieW]

Heather - I agree it does look like Pitman but when you try to read it, it is impossible.  I even had a look at an old Pitman's book to see if I could find anything in there that would help.

I had already had a PM from Ian about it and did try, but totally failed to decipher anything.  As I said to him, if there weren't the odd words in English and the @ sign, I would have thought it was a mirror image of the original.

I was surprised there were so many marks for vowels etc.  Most people I know that use Pitman's don't bother with those once they've become used to making the outlines.

Lizzie

[Redroger]

Is this an attempt to distinguish umlauts etc, if the text is German, or other accents if in another language?

[HeatherLynne]

You're right about all the marks for vowels Lizzie, it certainly doesn't seem to have been written at speed.  More like someone writing words that are unfamiliar to them and adding as much information as possible, so quite possibly in a foreign language.

[yelkcub]

This discussion becomes more and more interesting! If I'm understanding correctly, there seem to be two main schools of thought:
1. The document is written in a variety of Pitman - though there are features (vowel markers) not normally used by shorthand practitioners, which may indicate that the note is in a language other than English.
2. The document is written in a German form of shorthand. I am grateful to Lutz ('SaxonbyChemnitz') for offering to take the image to the Saxony Museum in Dresden when he gets the opportunity. Vielen Dank, Lutz - dass ist sehr nett von Ihnen.  Certainly my ancestor James Page spoke German (and French and, reportedly, other languages).

Whichever of the above proves to be correct, I'm more and more convinced that James Page wrote this note in shorthand as a way of keeping the contents from anyone else likely to pick up his notebook - the rest of whose contents are in longhand English. My other observation is that someone used to writing shorthand over a long period (the note was written 30 years after JP attended the commercial college in Hamburg) is likely to make personal adaptations to the system he was taught.
I'm really grateful for all these contributions - and hope we can crack the code one way or another!

Ian

[derby girl]

Actually, even early on you tend to develop your own short forms for things, depending on the sort of subject you are writing - the sort of work you are engaged in.  It's difficult for one shorthand writer to read another's writing at any time therefore.  The other thing is Pitman (New Era) shorthand - don't know about earlier Pitman - is written on three levels, and the paper looks blank, where normally you would prefer to use lined paper, so putting in some vowels might very well help transcription at a later date.
Regards
Derby Girl

[LizzieW]

My other observation is that someone used to writing shorthand over a long period (the note was written 30 years after JP attended the commercial college in Hamburg) is likely to make personal adaptations to the system he was taught.

Which makes it all the more surprising that he has added all the vowel symbols, as I said mose experienced shorthand writers ignore those once they are proficient.

I agree Derby Girl that Pitman's is written on three levels, but again although that is how I was taught - and it was 50 years ago  I don't bother with those different levels now.  I can read my own shorthand, and some people might be able to read bits of it, but probably not all of it.