Charles GREEN of Thurleigh

[redgum]

Hello Wendy,

It is nice to have contact with you.

Yes my husband is  a descendant from Benjamin and his second wife Hannah GARNER. We are in South Australia.

I have  papers that show the work as it  progressed on the Australian GREEN tree and it has resulted in a booklet about the GREENs in Australia and their heritage in England. The English heritage is acknowledged as the work of "our fourth cousin in England who prepared the GREEN FAMILY OF BEDFORD which shows years of research"

There was correspondence with descendants from Elizabeth (3rd daughter to Richard & Mary Elderkin). In fact it includes a photo where Benjamin's & Elizabeth's descendants, meet in Orpington.

 Information is recorded as to where & when the families migrated but under Charles it states "This family unknown, in England"
Charles has his family listed with dates of birth for all children but no further information on the children. The youngest child is born in 1853.
Its a shame but I haven't any further information on the Charles line.

I too noted the Mary Ann BROWN /Elizabeth Ann BROWN difference,  it is recorded as Mary on my paperwork. (Possibly a transcribing error on this tree.)
 Like you said, it makes little difference and it seems she was known as Ann.

Wonder what happened to them.

Regards
Robyn

[wdurham]

Hi, John-P - thanks for that note from Riseley PRs, every little helps!

Robyn - I guess we are distant cousins of a sort? I do have family in Australia, but they are of much more recent origin, having got there in about 1939!

There's quite a bit about the Greens on the net, including a very comprehensive site for the Biggs family. Elizabeth Green, the elder sister of Charles, William and Benjamin Green, married into this family. There's also an Ancestral File on the IGI.

We know that Richard Green married Mary Elderkin in Riseley in 1795, and at that time was living in Cople. His burial in Thurleigh in 1812 says he was 38, putting a birth in 1774-ish. The only likely baptism is of a Richard Green, son of Richard and Susannah, in Cardington in 1778. All the trees on the internet say that this is the same man. Cople and Cardington are practically joined at the hip, so the different parish is not a problem. But it has been assumed that the age discrepancy is because Richard lied about his age in order to say he was 21 when he married Mary Elderkin in 1795, when in fact he was only 17, and he maintained the fiction all his life.

Whilst this is perfectly plausible, as his father was long dead, and his mother may have been also - I can't find a definitive burial for her - I am not convinced it is enough to prove the connection between a Richard who was baptised in Cardington in 1778, and the Richard who was from Cople at the time of his marriage, married in Riseley, settled in Thurleigh and died in 1812 allegedly aged 38.  The Cardington baptism could have been a late one, but as the same couple had a daughter baptised in early 1774, and seemed to baptise as they went along rather than in job lots, it's not likely.

There is one other tenuous link - Richard's eldest son Charles named one of his daughters Susannah. But there are no other obvious naming conventions.

By making the link between Richard b 1774 and Richard baptised 1778, I could add several generations of Richard's forbears to my direct line - but find myself reluctant to do it and go through a lot of checking-up on someone else's research if it's not the right Richard!

What do others think? Robyn especially - how long ago would you estimate the Green research that you have was actually done?  If it predates the internet, it is more likely to be the product of painstaking research from actual records....

[bedfordshire boy]

Susanna Green widow was buried at Cardington on 28 March 1803. Her husband Richard was buried at Cardington on 5 May 1781.

There's no extra detail on the 2 Aug 1778 baptism of Richard. But it wasn't a late baptism, as in the 1 Jan 1782 census of Cardington the family is living in Fenlake, a hamlet of Cardington, and Richard is shown as age 3 yrs 6 mths ie birth Jun 1778. You may as well have the full entry now the book's open!
Cottage, Fenlake
Susannah Green Widow. Maiden name Simons, born at Hail Weston Hunts, spins linen age 41  (Ed's note: marr at Cople 11 Oct 1763)
Child 1: Elizabeth Spins linen; age 14.9
         2: Thomas, servant to Thos. Brimley, Harrowden  11.6
         3: Susannah at school by Mr Whitbread 9.6
         4: Mary at school by Mr Howard age 7
         5: Richard 3.6
       
Thomas married in Cardington on 13 July 1801 when he was described as of Cople.

There doesn't appear to have been any Greens baptising children in Cople, the previous one before Richard's marriage in 1795 being in 1726.

It would be interesting to see exactly what the marriage entry says: was his age given as being under 21, with consent, or was he over 21? Burial ages are often suspect, but age 38 should be more accurate than, say, age 78.

Sticking my scrawny little neck out, I think it's the same Richard

David

[wdurham]

Great stuff, David - very many thanks!

[redgum]

Hi Wendy,

The booklet was completed Dec 1980 and many years of research must have gone into the compiling of the English records.
They date back to the 1600s and include Heath Tax returns, Letters of Administration and Parish Relief records to name only a few.
Well beyond what the internet can provide even today.
The work is attributed to "our fourth cousin who, incidently, is the secretary of the NW Kent Family History Society".
My guess is this is someone from Elizabeth's line.

It appears that Benjamin's father Richard caused a few problems here initially too, as one record stated he died aged 106 
Three Family Bibles in Australia were used as part of the collation of the Australian records so I can only assume one bible had this grand death age  noted.

The booklet's introduction and explanation of how the tree was compiled, includes giving details of some correspondence re this 106 yrs problem. Including  this response from the 4th cousin " I extracted all the GREENs from Thurleigh registers up to 1813 and there is only one Benjamin ..."

The Australian compiler concludes
" We are now convinced that Benjamin's father was Richard GREEN bap. 2/8/1778 at Cardington Bedfordshire, Buried 12/1/1812 at Thurleigh aged 33 not 106."

Looking at his age at death - 33 versus 38- Could the 8 possibly be a 3? This would make the birth year 1878 correct.

There is  information on Mary GREEN (nee ELDERKIN)  here are a few details.
She remarried John OSBOURNE, 63, widower on 13/10/1815. John died aged 84 and was buried 31/3/1836.
1841 Census has Charles, William & Benjamin living near their mother in Thurleigh.
1851 census has Mary living alone. Charles & Elizabeth near by with their families.
Nov 1859 Mary enters Bedford Union Workhouse. Details of  a newspaper article are included  when the mayor visited the workhouse on Boxing day.
Mary OSBOURN died 9/10/1862 and was taken back to Thurleigh for burial on 11/10/1862


Adding this about Susannah GREEN nee SIMONS.
It gives her burial details as found by David
It states that she was given Parish Relief with the details after the death of Richard.
The 1781 census details taken by the village schoolteacher are also recorded as given by David.
Samuel Whitbread, a brewer and John HOWARD, the prison reformer were two local philanthropists, they paid for the schooling of Susannah age 9 and Mary 6.
In 1787 a  Samuel Whitbread provided free rent  of 4 furnished houses with a garden, to widows, widowers, single persons of sober decent life and conversation, regular attendance at public worship, etc. Susannah GREEN, widow aged 47, 23 yrs residence in the Parish is recorded as a beneficary .


I have not verified any of the information but the research is extensive, comprehensive and appears very thoroughly researched.
Where records are missing or may be questionable, it is noted.

The records David has provided match those included and keeping in mind this work was pre 1980....

I have no hesitation in accepting Richard  (b 1778 d 1812) as our man.


Hope this helps Wendy.

Regards
Robyn

[wdurham]

Ah, thanks so much, Robyn - that was just the kind of provenance I was hoping for. "Proper" research!

As David and John-P will confirm, there is already one instance in this Green-Armstrong family where a completely incorrect link has been made between a William Armstrong b 1792 living in Thurleigh b Ravensden and a William Armstrong b in Upper Gravenhurst in the same year, simply because there was only one William in the Beds parish records transcribed to the IGI.  Coincidentally, the son of this very William Armstrong was living next door to Mary Osbourn in Park End in 1851!

The 33 vs 38 point is interesting, because Richard would indeed have been 33 at his death - he would not have been 34 until the summer of 1812.  The NBI has transcribed the age as 38. Your records state 33.  As you suggest, there's a strong possibility of a transcription error here.

There is comment on the subject included in the Biggs family tree at:

http://www.biggsworld.com/Green%20History/greenpage5.htm

The possible age of 106 at death is a bit baffling - there aren't any Richard Greens dying in Bedfordshire between 1860 and 1890 according to FreeBMD. But then according to the link above, his daughter Elizabeth is alleged to have died aged 99 in 1899, and I can't find her death on FreeBMD either!

One last question - in 1841 Mary Osborn nee Elderkin is living with Edward Green aged 10, close to Benjamin and Hannah - in 1851 she is living a couple of doors up from Edward aged 20 and his wife Sarah. Do your records indicate who this Edward is?

Thanks for all your help - what with your info and help from David and John-P, I now feel comfortable with Richard 1778 as my 4xgreat grandfather!

[johnP-bedford]

The Thurleigh PR transcription states on the burial on 12 Jan 1812 of Rich Green the age "38."  - most likely where the NBI got it's figure from.

[redgum]

Pleased it has helped Wendy.
 It appears that  this has been well researched and the detail is amazing.
As I have not ventured into this arm of the family yet I can only give you what these documents  reveal and trust it is right.
It pays to be cautious and it must have been devastating to discover you had the wrong William Armstrong.
I take on-line trees with much caution as I have seen big errors concerning some of  my ancestors.

In these records there is an Edward  born to Eleanor b 28 February 1831 in Thurleigh.
Perhaps he was brought up by his grandmother. There is no other detail on him.
Eleanor is shown as marrying 21/10/1833 to John ARMSTRONG in Thurleigh.

Thank you for the link, when  I get to this branch it will make an interesting addition.
 
I think the 106 yr old death may have been a wild stab by an uninformed descendant of Benjamin. It apparently only popped up once and was discredited on investigation.

Guess the question of Richard GREENs age will remain as John P has been able to check the PR.

I don't mind passing on the information so ask as much as you need.

Regards
Robyn

[StevenG]

My notes on the marriage of Thomas Green to Martha Maughan at Cardington, 13th July 1801, suggest that Thomas was from Cople.

I would like to think that Thomas and Richard were probably brothers, although it could, of course, be coincidence.  However, I don't see a Thomas Green in the family of Richard and Susanna.