Arthur Kemp Maltby Rotherham

[duckweed]

Thanks I hadn't seen the double marriage. I'm not sure where if at all my Kemps fit with yours because the ones that are the same date as your John Kemps are actually born on the Manvers estate in Nottinghamshire at Perlethorpe. However it does seem too much of a coincidence that both your Kemps and my Kemps are involved in Butchery. Have you tried looking at the Duke of Westmorland's estates and see if there is a connection through service to this family. I don't have any John Kemps in my family. Have you any Robert Kemps? I will have a closer look at my Tickhill notes. The Kemp family goes back centuries at Tickhill in any case as they were weavers brought over by De Busli in the 11th century but it also means the name crops up wherever there is a major cloth industry such as Nottingham.

[Sarah H]

I have tried to map all the Sheffield Kemps and come up with two lines which, at present, don't connect.  One has butchers and tailors (I guess this is mine) and the other has cutlers.

I think my line goes John 1821 (tailor) - John 1780 (butcher) - Thomas 1750 (butcher) m Mary Sylvester - John (tailor) m Mary Worrall (I have other Worral/Kemp links too).

The other line goes back to Robert (hardwareman) who had numerous cutlers as descendents (not surprising in Sheffield).  This Robert is the correct age to either be father or elder brother to the eldest John above.

There are also more Roberts (and others) who I haven't managed to place yet as some are obviously marrying and being baptised away from Sheffield - but where?  With the Tickhill connections you have found I am wondering if the connection could be there.  From directories it would appear that there are Kemps in Tickhill who are drapers too - not a million miles from a tailor to a draper.

The same names and occupations seem to be running through both lots of Kemps so I am sure that there must be a link somewhere.   

[Sarah H]

Have now got a definite connection from the Tickhill Kemps to the Sheffield cutler Kemps.  The Sheffield cutler's apprentice records show a John Kemp taken as an apprentice in 1785, son of John Kemp (shoemaker, deceased) of Tickhill, to master cutler David Lambert for a period of 9 years.  This could mean John Kemp junior born in approx. 1773  (usually about 21 when apprenticeship finished).

There are also another two Kemps on the apprenticeship records that I can place as being part of my "cutler" Kemp line who were baptised in Sheffield.

Can you spot this chap on your records from Tickhill?

[Sarah H]

There is a member submission on the IGI for a John Kemp b 1773 father John, mother Mary in Tickhill.  If this is correct (and I admit it may not be) I would say that the family is as follows:

John Kemp (shoemaker) m Mary Kelk 14 Nov 1766
Children:
Mary Kemp bap 11 Oct 1768
Samuel Kemp bap 27 Dec 1770
Daniel Kemp bap 27 Jan 1771
John Kemp bap 19 Mar 1773 (cutler's apprentice)
George Kemp 21 Aug 1775
Joseph Kemp bap 21 Aug 1778

It also makes the last two on here prime candidates for the entries in Baines Directory 1822: George Kemp, boot and shoemaker (as was his father) and Joseph Kemp, grocer, linen & woollen draper, hatter and hosier.

Pigots Directory in 1829 has John Kemp, Market Place, grocers and drapers - is this John junior (who first became a cutler)?

[duckweed]

Have you tried Sheffield Records online?
http://www.sheffieldrecordsonline.org.uk

Rotherham marriages have a John Kemp marry an Ann Allen 27 Mar 1749
also trade directory Sheffield 1791 J. Kemp Cutler

I've looked in my notes no John Kemp. I have a Joseph John Kemp born 1814 to Joseph and Mary Kemp in Tickhill . The person I am interested in is Robert Jarvis Kemp who was of Rotherham according to burial records but died in Tickhill in 1846 aged 34 Years. This is interesting  because  there is both Jarvis and Kemp in my family. Jarvis family owned several shops in Tickhill and Nottinghamshire. I think my Kemps will probably be linked to earlier Tickhill Kemps and the shop owning Jarvis's and I think yours will be too but its finding the link. I know a Jarvis married a Kemp. Think that's where Robert Jarvis Kemp comes from. I think he was born in Tickhill.   You might try looking for Kemps in Rotherham and also Scrooby, Bawtry and Austerfield.

[Sarah H]

I think we have discovered the same people.  I have had a lot of information from the website you mentioned too - very useful.  I think that the Ann Allen marriage may be another generation earlier so I have a note of it.

I think Robert Jarvis Kemp b 1812 was son of Joseph Kemp and Mary Jarvis.  He had siblings Malin 1809, Sarah 1811, Joseph 1814, William 1818, Henry 1819 and Edwin 1821.  I think that Joseph senior's parents were the John Kemp and Mary Kelk I mentioned before.  It was Joseph's brother, John, who was the Sheffield cutler but I think that he changed occupation and, by 1829, was back in Tickhill as a grocer/draper.

I cannot spot a link between this family and that of Charles Kemp who married Mary Matthews.  These seem to be the butchers.  Do you have one?

[duckweed]

No I don't but feel its too much of a coincidence that my Kemps should end up in the Kemp heartland without there being a connection. However I may be wrong.  My Kemps are mainly in service or butcjers though Arthur Kemp did try his hand at being a cutler but gave it up.

[thehearns]

Hi Duckweed  Gosh it can be such a web of intrigue at times!!! 
Am trying to process too much information!!! And if I step into another part of the family, find more links and intrigue!!!

Talk about getting  bogged down. What I find most confusing at times is when they have the same name- for example I noted two Robert Kemps... one born 1812 and the other born 1838 who married Angelina.There were obviously also two or more Charles Kemps.

For example :The Robert 1812 who appeared on a census 1841 aged 29 had father Joseph b 1778 aged 63, Mary wife  aged 61 b 1780; Malin aged 32 b 1809, Robert 1812 and Henry . 22 b 1818 ( a butcher).

( I noted than the name Malin appeared again in another census as a child of someone....and being such an unusual name must have had a connection but I didn't print if off or note it as I was trying not to stray to far and wide away from the task at hand and get bogged down. I can't recall what census it was now but when i join up again will have to take a look! I think from memory that this Malin listed above married as well and had kids in a later census even though in the 1841 census he was still residing with the parents! Maybe he married late.

This is very interesting about 25 Portman Square and Sarah Jacques as a servant. And just how she  ( perhaps family) comes to be associated with Charles Kemp- although it makes sense that it could be by association through employment but I don't envisage a valet chatting up a female servant in those times???.
The notes that a cousin had in her file had her her being employed at 95 Gloucester Place, Portman Square. After all there were a few misprints. So, that could be an error or then again she may have worked in more than one place who knows.
I had a look yesterday at Portman Square area 1800s and it seems as you say, very upmarket where all the Earls and Barons lived- didn't hit on no 25 though.

I wasn't aware of the Charles Kemp not being on the 1841 census in St James Place London and 1851 in Belvoir castle. The only one I sighted him on- whatever that was as I didn't take much note given he wasn't linked at that time to Mary - but I do recall this Charles as as valet just no particulars.

It is always possible as well that there is a double link between Jarvises and Kemps- like an early one and a later one- has happened in some of my family here through marriages- siblings and the like .

More interesting is who was this Sarah Jacques if she is connected to Charles Kemp and how....and who was her family exactly and what connection did they have to the Kemps?? Where did she originate and whether her parents always resided London or came from Nottingham or somewhere.
The Thorseby Park sets a common place  but now am wondering what the commonality is.. although if her parents married and lived in Marylebone and Charles was working in St James Place London in 1841, perhaps they had links through the people where they worked or perhaps Charles knew Sarah's father through his work or perhaps the Kemps in Thorseby had connections with the Earl of Manvers and his lot?

I found some Jacques in Leicester on censuses but none seemed to fit directly, although I thought at the time they could be possibly related- like cousins. Also one fellow I connected with thru Genes Reunited some time , who resides near Sheffield ( Connisborough?) said it is possible but didn't have any info on a Sarah in his tree. He had a Sarah Whitaker ( brother James?? from whom he stems)  in his lineage born abt the same time in relation to Sarah Whitaker ( who married a Robert Jacques Marylebone 1808) and supposedly had our Sarah).

Tis like a huge jigsaw.
Did you happen to find anything about the Kemps pre 1800 from Tickhill-George Kemp b 1781 and wife Ruth that turned up on the censuses- John b 1801, and Mary 1799. I didn't find too many Kemps born Tickhill prior to 1800 in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. I think I need to create some sort of summary sheet and any info I find re those with same name - to put it on it!!
If Charles Kemp was born Thorseby.  I wonder if or how the Tickhill Kemps are linked other than through the Castle?

Kemps live in the same neighbourhood in Tickhill as George and Hannah Teasdale; Charles from Thorseby works at the Castle along with George T and, married to sister , Mary, of  wife Hannah. Charles sister, Lucy Kemp also a servant to a Lady Lowther in Gloucester Square. Sarah Jacques would then know the daughter Mary Leticia Eyre, ( about the same age???)who is married to the Earl of Manvers as she is working for her father. This Earl comes from Thorseby Park..... so how well does he know the Kemps from Thoresby? How does Sarah meet William- son of George T? Thinking.......thinking...what have we got in common here......horses... groomsman.... valets.... servants... Earls and castles..... At the races? Perhaps The Ascot races??? What a venue ... Ahh pure supposition!!!
Am off to brew up and ponder all this- and mull it over!!!

Bronnie

[thehearns]

Have noticed chat between Duckweed and Bronhill, but it seems to have stopped in 2009.
 Has anyone solved the mystery of Charlotte Jacques who was a witness in a marriage in South Australia?
And if Thomas Teasdale  was in fact married to Hannah Longden 26 Nov 1793 in Rotherham and was the father of George Teasdale b 1796?
Thanks....