Need Advice on connecting HEDGES brothers #1

[Janice77]

Hi Ladies: 

Yes I think that Jenny and I are related.  I will call my aunt tonight and try to get the e-mail of my distant cousins who have gone into this, but I'm not sure if they went into the Cumber's side of the family or both.  I will ask anyway when I get their numbers.  How can we contact Sylvia? 

Also, Deb, there was something about Penfold on the Romany web-site that I sent last time...maybe you already know a lot about your history. 

I also would like to know more about Alice.  I had my DNA done by the National Geographic Project, and they trace it back through the female side for females, so for me Alice would be the one that I am wondering if she was Romany or not.  Elias obviously was, but I have no males to test - everyone is dead.  That would be really interesting because we could see where he really did come from.

Also, Jen, are you in the UK or USA?  I know Deb is in the USA. 

I am so happy that we all found each other.

J.

[Janice77]

Oh, I just remembered one more thing about Alice.  I think she is my grandmother's sister that she always called "poor Alice" because she died early (like "poor Olive").  Anyway, the name Reynolds is also familiar.  Of note, it lookes like Albey had a few children before she got married to Alfred, so that maybe the children were known by more than one last name.
If we can contact Sylvia, maybe we can fill in some more of the tale.  J.

[Nennefer]

Hi Janice
I live in the Kent, UK not far from the area where my ancestor William HEDGES settled in Chatham Kent. I am about an hour away by car and just a couple of hours from Essex. Where are you?

I have an old email address for Sylvia I will PM it to you. You could try that and if you get no reply you could always try getting contact through The Romany and Traverller Family History Society. The Romany Routes Magazine that she contacted me through is their magazine. They may be able to put you in touch if she is still a member.
This is the site for them   http://www.rtfhs.org.uk/
Have you ever read a book called Gypsies of Britain by Brian Vesey-FitzGerald. There is a mention of James HEDGES on page 88 it states.
Thompson records that at the funeral of James Hedges, one of a half-blood family that travels chiefly in Essex, a friend dropped half-a-crown into the open grave, saying as he did so:"Here Jimmy: here'ssomething for a drink on the way."
The book was first published in 1944 so he is talking of a James prior to that. From the others he is talking of in the chapter I get the impression it is about 1910 to 1920.
I wondered if there was other info. on James Hedges funeral available somewhere I think I need death details to be able to investigate more.
Regards Jenny

[Nennefer]

I have found this record of a death for a James HEDGES and wonder if this is our James I might have to send for it and just see what I get, not sure what I would gain though. Do you think it worth getting Debs.

Deaths Sep 1889
Hedges  James  76  Romford  4a 138   

Age makes this James born 1813 I have James as 1815 so it could be him I guess.

[Nennefer]

i have been making inquiries about James HEDGES at Havering Archives. On the 1871 Census he is with his family in caravans outside Hedges Cottage in Moss Lane Nr. Shakespeare Rd. Romford. I was curious about the name of the cottage so made some inquiries. This is what I found out.

I have checked the Rate Book for 1871 and the following is listed
 
Romford Town Ward 4th January 1871
 
Albert Road nr. same  (this I think must be Moss Lane which comes off Albert Road)
 
OCCUPIER                 OWNER                                     DESCRIPTION
 
Hedge, James        Hedge, James                            Cottage and garden
 
    same                            same                                                land
 
Martin, H.                         same                                    Cottage and garden
 
Chalinor, H                      same                                    Cottage and garden

Hedge, James                same                                     Garden ground
 
The same entries appear for 1872.  Clearly then the land in that area is owned and some of it occupied by James Hedge - hence I suppose Hedge's Place.
 

So James HEDGES was a man of property and actually owned Hedges Cottage but didn't live in it. He and his relations stayed in the garden in 1871.
Not sure if this info. will help discover a connection between the three supposed brothers but it puts flesh on the bones. He certainly wasn't a poor traveller.

[deb usa]

Hi girls

This is all so exciting !!!!

Janice ...I do have quite a lot on my Penfolds .... I have visited the Romany genes site and others ...thanks for you interest.

RE: Alice Reynolds b 1846  St mary ...I cannot find her in the 1851 or 1861 census ... I also cannot find a birth registration for her  The fact that they were not formally married is also a problem as we have no cert to order to find more details 

re Albey/alvey Cumbers nee Hedges

1891
Cheshunt, Hertford
Longfield Lane
Caravan
Alfred Cumbers head mar 31 hawker b essex Romford
ALBEY wife 26 b Kent dartford
Elizer son 6 Dartford
Eliza dau 3 b South End essex
/
Elias Hedges head 52 hawker b Dartford
Alice wife 50 b dartford .... so now bc 1841
Elizass son 22 hawker b dartford
Elijah son 20 hawker b dartford
Charlotte dau 18 hawker b dartford
Phoebe dau 16 b Romford essex
Eliza dau 13 b Romford

1901
Cheshunt, Hertford
Caravan Standhews Lane
Alfred Cumbers head mar 42 travelling hawker/employer b Romford
AUBREY (sic) wife 36 Dartford kent
Elias son 16 treavelling hawker b kent Teston?
Eliza dau 14 b Southend on Sea
Olive dau 10 b Herts, Flamstead End ...is this "Poor Olive'?
Alice dau  8         "           "   ...is this "poor Alice"?
Phillis dau 4        "            "
Henry son 2        "           "

I found this birth ;
Albey Cumbers
june q  1891 
Edmonton  Essex, Hertfordshire, Middlesex 
3a  483 

Now who does she belong to ? ...unless she is Olive ?

deb

[deb usa]

Hi again

found this site by g**gling ...have you seen them janice ....? It has the genealogy of the Cumbers family ;

http://essex1841.com/Legacy/2661.htm

deb

[deb usa]

William HEDGES Married Frances JENNINGS (Known as Fanny) on the 23 Sept.1833 at Yalding  witnesses at the wedding were John NELSON and Harriet JENNINGS
Then later we find
Elias EASTWOOD Married Harriet JENNINGS on  28 Sept 1835 At Yalding
Witnesses at the wedding were James HEDGES and Frances EASTWOOD

Now we know Frances JENNINGS was Born in Islington Middlesex.
now note Eliza wife to James HEDGES was also born in Islington Middlesex
I think Frances JENNINGS is also Sister to Eliza wife of James HEDGES

I have found this marriage Jenny

Jeremiah Hedges = Sarah Ann Eastwood or Harriet Tanner
dec q  1870 
Romford Essex 
 4a   181 

 Jeremiah b 1848 s/o Job

can't confirm who yet as i cannot find them in 1871 ...will look further.

[deb usa]

hi

Jenny ...re the marriage of Jeremiah ...the other man on the page was a Sidney Eaton

I have found Sidney Eaton , b 1849 with wife HARRIET in Romford , Essex on the 1871 census ...

so if Sidney Eaton = Harriet Tanner then Jeremiah Hedges must = Sarah Ann EASTWOOD.

So we have the eastwoods and Hedges marrying each other.

YOUR William Hedges marries Frances Jennings (1833 Yalding)...her sister, Harriet,  marries  Elias Eastwood in 1835 Yalding where a James Hedges is a witness. Then Jeremiah s/o Job Hedges marries an Eastwood.... within this statement are the names of all the 'brothers'

It seems probable that William and James were all living in the same area 1835-1838

Will see if I can find more

deb