Completed - Nottingham Lace Manufacturers : Jerram, Warner & Jerram 1823 - 1831

[Framesmiths1816]

Hi,

I think I have a possible connection now after some digging around.

From the Will of Thomas Jerramthere are the following names and relationships. Thomas died in Q1 1852 between 23rd Jan and 8th March 1852.From the 1851 census he was born in Blidworth Notts around 1778/9.

Amelia (AKA Emily) Jerram - Daughter
George Turner Jerram - Son
Harriet - Wife
John Jerram - Nephew (Tea Dealer)
Mary Orton (nee Jerram) married to Dr Henry Orton (Surgeon) see :
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08ea
(This family were in Canada by 1834).
At his death Thomas left property in both Cheltenham and Beeston Nottingham.

I think it very likely that Harriet, who is a several years younger than Thomas, is a later mariage and the the mother of Mary &  George is Mary Turner married in Leeds in 1802 although there is a possibility that it could be a Sarah Turner.

Thomas appears to have had at least four siblings all born in Blidworth

John 1768
Charles 1770
William 1774
Samuel 1776
Thomas 20/11/1778

all born to Charles Jerram and Mary (Knutter ?) married 23rd/2/1768 in Blidworth.

It seems likely that Charles was baptised in Sawley and Long Eaton 17/10/1734, born to John and Mary Jerrom. If this is correct then Charles is an older brother to your James born in 1745.

If you think this is likely correct then I suggest you check out your Canadian cousins.

I hope this is helpful to you both.

Best regards - Mark

[Diana Nelson]

Hi Mark,
Most interesting to get your messages.  Nice to know we have connections in Canada!!  I shall now follow that through. 
I have traced our connection to John Jerram (1706-1769),  who married Elizabeth Mary Anne Gregory.  Anne died at the birth of their son Charles b 1734 at Sawley.  Five years later, John married Mary Robinson and they had two sons, William b 1742 and James (my ancestor) b 1745, making them half brothers to Charles. 
Charles married Mary Knutton, daughter of William Knutton of Larch Farm near Blidworth.  I have the same listing as you for their family.  I didn't know that Thomas had gone to Canada.  His wife Harriot (nee Wood) was the widow of his brother Samuel who died in 1824 and to my knowledge, this was his only marriage.  I do have listings of Charles descendants, some dating to about the 1920's.  My Jerram records go back to the 1500's.   Hope that is of help.

Regards,          Diana

[Diana Nelson]

Mary Jerram was one of eleven children born to James and Ellen (nee Crofts) Jerram. 
James c 1773  (my ancestor)  who married Hannah Lawton
Thomas b 1773
Mary b 1775 who married George Bradley
Ann c 1776
Elizabeth c 1778
William c 1779
Hannah c 1780
Eleanor b 1781 who married Henry Pratt
Abigail c 1783
John c 1784
Sophia c 1788

My James Jerram (Mary Bradley's nephew) was in partnership in a lace factory in Nottingham with his brother John which had been started with their father James Jerram.  I believe there factory was situated at High Pavement and Island Streets and later at Castlegate.  It is believed there was a dispute between the brothers around 1850 and it was then that James decided to move on and came to New Zealand with his family.  They had

Sarah b 1839 who we believed died before they left England
Ann Galloway b 1840 who was a teacher in Auckland, NZ
James Tait b 1842 who married Harriet Speedy
George Gibson b 1843 who returned to Nottingham
Mary Ellen b 1847 who married William Neale
William Galloway b 1848  ( my grandfather) who married Fanny Harley.

I hope this is of interest to you.

Kindest regards,    Diana

[Framesmiths1816]

Hi Mark,
Most interesting to get your messages.  Nice to know we have connections in Canada!!  I shall now follow that through. 
I have traced our connection to John Jerram (1706-1769),  who married Elizabeth Mary Anne Gregory.  Anne died at the birth of their son Charles b 1734 at Sawley.  Five years later, John married Mary Robinson and they had two sons, William b 1742 and James (my ancestor) b 1745, making them half brothers to Charles. 
Charles married Mary Knutton, daughter of William Knutton of Larch Farm near Blidworth.  I have the same listing as you for their family.  I didn't know that Thomas had gone to Canada.  His wife Harriot (nee Wood) was the widow of his brother Samuel who died in 1824 and to my knowledge, this was his only marriage.  I do have listings of Charles descendants, some dating to about the 1920's.  My Jerram records go back to the 1500's.   Hope that is of help.

Regards,          Diana

Hi Diana,

Thanks for all this extra information. I have been puzzling over the Jerram family for some time, so it is interesting to find connections at last.

I think I have unintentionally mis-lead you. It is the Orton family Mary Orton (nee Jerram) and Dr Henry Orton and their children that went to Canada. Mary's father, Thomas b 1778 blidworth stayed in the UK and he and his wife lived at 4 Seagrove Place Cheltenham. His son George Turner Jerram was born in 1805 and Mary was born in 1808. Mary married Henry Orton in 24th April 1828 in Beeston. If, as you say, Harriot is the widdow of Samuel, who died in 1824 then George and  Mary cannot be the children of Harriot (although Emily/Amelia might be). Is this what you meant by "This was his only marriage" or did you mean Samuel? I am as certain as I can be that Thomas married twice although there is a possibility he might have married a third time sometime between 1815 and 1820 but this is only a hunch and is probably wrong from what you have told me.

From what you tell me, I would now suspect that the Nephew mentioned in the Will, John Jerram ( Tea Dealer), is probably the child of the Samuel Jerram and Harriot Wood marrige. I will see if I can find out.

There are patent documents on the Internet relating to George Turner Jerram dating from around 1845 which might also be of interest to you. George seems to marry in Cheltenham in 1842. The Will also indicates that Amelia/Emily in not yet 21 in 1852

If you wish to get a copy it is available throught the National Archives online documents for £3.50.

Best regards - Mark

Added - High Pavement is very close to Halifax place in the Lace Market area of Nottingham. John and Sarah Warner (my relatives) lived at Plumptree House next to St Mary's church, sadly demolished in the 1850's to make way for the Birkin Lace factory on Stoney Street. I highly recommend (if you do not have it) finding a copy of William Felkin's book A history of Machine made Lace.. which was written in the 1850's and details many of the persononalities of the area which he knew personally. I have subscribers copy (first edition made for a person mentioned int he book) and will see if others of your family are mentioned.

[Diana Nelson]

Hi Mark,

This all seems to be falling into place.  Thank you too for the information you have sent.  It is so hard finding things out from the other side of the world.  I am glad to have been able to help in some little way. 

I have looked back to my original information and omitted to see that Thomas Jerram had indeed been married twice and believed there had only been one marriage.  It is noted in very small writing that Harriet was his second wife, but there is no mention as to the name of his previous one.  His three children are listed as their family!  I have looked for a Jerram / Turner marriages in the BD&M listings I have available and the only ones I have come up with don't have a George Turner Jerram listed among their children.  There is a Mary and a Sarah, but I cannot comfirm that they are the right ones, although they all lived in Sawley! 

As you say, the nephew John mentioned in the will may well have been Harriot and Samuel's son, as Samuel was a tea merchant,  but I have been unable to find any children to them and assumed there weren't any.  I don't see any other John listed who could be a nephew to him in the other families.

I have looked up to Orton family and found it all most interesting.  I had been missled with the surname being Horton in the records I had been given, so hadn't been able to trace them before.

It is all very interesting with the Lace factories too. I shall see if I can source the book you mentioned.  I went to Nottingham about three years ago, but couldn't find anything at the information centre relating to the Jerram family.

Please let me know if there is anything else I can help you with.

Kindest regards.       Diana

[Diana Nelson]

Hi Mark,

I do believe I have solved our problem regarding Thomas Jerram's first marriage by searching in IGI files.  Here I have found a marriage for :

Thomas Jerom to Mary Greatorex on 22nd October 1804 at Chrich, Derby, England under the Derby register.

I them went to Nottingham and found the christenings of three children to Thomas and Mary Jerom at St Nicholas, Nottingham.

George Jerom c 3rd April, 1805
Charles Jerrom c 3rd September, 1806
Mary Jerrom c 20th April, 1808.

What do you think??  These dates match those you supplied for George Turner and Mary!!!


Kindest regards.
Diana

[Framesmiths1816]

Hi Diana,

Well they certainly are possibilities. These are the children, I had seen in the IGI also and had assumed that they were very possibly the right ones.

The marriage, though, could be right but I have the following concerns.

1. There is a bit of a precident for the Jerrams using the mothers maiden name as a second name, which is why I suspect it could be Turner. Also there is two other George Turner's. One being George Turner Orton and the second being George Turner Jerram (Thomas' grandson or nephew). The Turner name is significant some how.

2. The 1851 census gives Amelia/Emily as being 33 so she is born 1818 ish.  There is an IGI record for a birth/baptism that matches this date giving the mother as Sarah.

3. St Nicolas is a Church of England Church. Thomas Jerram and his accociates were staunch Wesleyans and Baptists. Thomas left money in his Will to the Wesleyan missionary society and other Wesleyan Churches as well as St Ann's school and church which, if I remember correctly was endowed and built by Thomas Jerram. While non-conformist churches were not licensed to marry, so most marriages are in C of E churches at this date, Baptisms would be in a Wesleyan church unless he was a late convert.

Can you see see why I suspect a possible third marriage?

I guess that a death date for Mary (1st wife) would be useful. Did Thomas and Harriet marry in Nottingham?

What do you think?

Best regards - Mark

[Diana Nelson]

Hi Mark,

And, so the saga goes on with Thomas!! 

I do see how you suspect a third marriage with the information we can glean from records, although I believe that Turner must have been a name connected to a previous generation, as I doubt that the other George Turner Jerram who was Thomas's nephew would have been named after his aunt  by marriage surname! 

You are right in noting that children were often given the surname of their mother in many of the families.  It seemed to happen often in these families.

I have just looked up the IGI records (not that they are all complete I am sure), but did find the christening of Amelia Jerram on 24th July, 1817 with parents Thomas Jerram and Sarah.  On looking for a marriage between a Thomas Jerram and Sarah Turner, one took place on 22nd April, 1832 at Sawley, some 15 years after Amelia's birth/christening, so I doubt that would apply.
 
I too did notice a different church, but am not familiar with the various religions of the Nottingham churches.  Maybe Thomas's wife Mary belonged to that one.
I believe the only way we are going to solve this is to visit the various churches the family attended and see for ourselves, the registers in the church.  Unfortunately that is a bit out of the question for me being on the other side of the world!!

Sorry I haven't anything more positive to tell.

Kind Regards,            Diana

[Framesmiths1816]

Hi Diana,

Your points are well made. Speculation on any of this is just that, speculation, without the evidence to support it.

Turner is somehow significant but maybe significant to different generations for different reasons. I think that is all we can accurately surmise.

I also do not live near Nottingham, although I am closer than you are. We might be able to ask the help of some Nottinghamshire based Rootschat members who also have a special interest in the Nottingham Lace Industry.

I would suspect that there are some church records that either don't exist anymore or the IGI doesn't have as there is no obviously clear results around this family.

There is also the possible Jerrom/Turner marriage in 1802 in Leeds. It shouldn't be discounted. Thomas would have been over 21 in 1802 and possibly finshing an apprenticeship. It is not impossible that he went to Leeds or somewhere in that direction for this purpose. Apprenticeships usually ran from 14 to 21 and very often marriages follow the completion as the man is deemed able to support the wife on its completion. The Nottingham Lace Industry didn't really exist in 1802, Heathcote didn't patent the first machine until around 1810 so Lace was still a cottage industry at this time. If he did an apprenticeship then it might have been in an allied industry like Cotton whose early mechanisation was the foundation that the Lace industry was built on. Thomas's partner, John Warner came from Derby to Nottingham but he and his family was from Loughborough. His brother Isaac, my 4 x great grandfather, worked for John Heathcote in Loughborough, Devon and Paris. John, I think, worked in Derby for Heathcote's former partner Boden before coming to Nottingham. My reason for mentioning all this is to illustrate that people could be far more mobile than might be expected. Isaac died in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Best regards - Mark

Added - Found this under Nottingham Marriage bonds

Bride - Eliza, Elizabeth Beastall of Nottingham St Peter Spinster 21
Groom - George Turner Jerram of Nottingham St Mary Bachelor 21
Date 10/9/1827

Added No.2 - I think this nails the IGI references as the correct family

The Parish register search under freebmd has this entry

George Turner Jerram Bpt 3/4/1805 St Nicolas Nottingham
Sex - Male
Father Thomas Jerram, Mother Mary
File no. 11737

Mary is also there with the same details but look at this one

Amelia Jerram 24/7/1817 St Mary's Nottingham
Sex - Female
Father Thomas Jerram, Mother Sarah
Abode - Halifax Lane
Fathers occupation Lace Manufacturer
File No. 11720

Surely this cannot be a coincidence