e webb died on hms captain in 1870

[jollyrob]

Hello
i am searching for information on an ancestor of mine who died on the hms captain in 1870. his name was E webb, my father was told he was named after him ( edwin fredrick) but we cant be sure without more information. we know that my fathers great grandfather james webb was a sailor and we think that maybe e webb was one of his brothers. There is a memorial plaque in st pauls cathedral with the names of all those lost on hms captain and my ancestor e webb is listed there ( so we know its not just some family rumour). we know that he was not a 'boy' on the ship ( so was probably over 18 years old at the time of sinking) . Any advice on how we can find out more details of this relative would be gratefully recieved.
thank you
kim webb

[dawnsh]

Hi Kim

I've moved this from the London Board to Armed Forces.

I'm sure there will be someone here who can help you further.

Can you tell us what resources you have already looked at to prevent duplication of effort?

Dawn

[km1971]

Hi Kim

Here are two links for researching naval men at Kew:

= http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=39
= http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/military/navy/rnstep1.htm

Ken

[Bilge]

I can see why the plaque was placed in the Cathedral what a tradgedy.

This is one of the British Royal Navy’s greatest peacetime losses, HMS Captain, an experimental ship, capsized during her trials in the Bay of Biscay, on 7th September 1870, only 20 survivors out of a crew of over 500.

It capsized during a storm, described by those on traditional ships in the same fleet as unexceptional.
The created a public outcry and sympathy for the bereaved.

The most tangible memorial to the disaster today comprises two large plaques in St Paul’s Cathedral in London, one giving the official account of the disaster, with a list of the ship’s officers, and the other listing the seamen, Royal Marines and boys who died.

Many descendants rely on word-of-mouth family history stories, are interested in the details of the accident, and the records of both those lost and the very few who survived. Some have been in touch with each other, and exchanged information.

If you wish to do this look here:

http://www.hmscaptain.co.uk/

http://www.memorials.inportsmouth.co.uk/churches/st_anns/hms_captain.htm

[Valda]

If you think James Webb had a brother called Edwin than that should be relatively easy to track on the censuses. Where and when was James Webb born?


Regards

Valda

[jollyrob]

hello
i have tried the census, but i cant pin the family down, we dont as yet know the name of francis mother which doesnt help matters ( we should find out when francis marriage certificate arrives.) there is no 1881 census which is the one that would help us most.
we know that francis married in 1900, and that he had a witness called charles webb, which we assume could be a brother. but we cannot find the family prior to that. i have searched for james francis his father and even charles webb, but nothing is coming up with the correct names, i have a few possibles but they then have no e webb in the family line. by 1891 our francis was 14 and so may have left home, which makes it harder. we really have tried looking at all the possibilities but cant seem to find a link to an ewebb yet. i am still working on it though.
does anyone know why there is no 1891 census?
i am still hoping that someone else will have an ancestor e webb from the hms captain and that they might be able to help me.
we tried searching for a crew list that might at least tell us what the initial E stood for. as it stands there are at least 7 edwin webbs alone that were in the navy between 1853 and 1870 and hundreds of e webbs, so it is a bit impractical not to mention expensive to request all their sea records in order to find the one on the captain. also we have no way of knowing for sure that he did joined after 1853 in which case searching for him will be significantly harder. we need really to find out info from the hms captain and trace him back rather than trying to find an e webb in the navy. if we were sure his name was edwin then it would be worth requesting all 7 service details.
it is proving a difficult find, but i shall endeavour to find a link.
i appreciate all the suggestions given so far.
my father has a hand made tapestry of the hms captain that has been handed down through the family (another hint that we are related to the e webb on hms captain). im 99% he is a great great uncle or something but still i would love to find the proof so my dad can be sure he inherited his name from this man.
kim

[jollyrob]

ok so a list of resources i have tried so far are.
the national archive ( online), Genes Reunited - census birth marriage etc, free bmd search, family search.org.
we have tried the www.hmscaptain .co.uk and the portsmouth memorial site. my father has visited st pauls cathedral and seen the plaques first hand. of course i am only  a beginner at this ancestor searching ( i started 2 weeks ago) so im not going to pretend that i have searched all thes resources exhaustively.
i have spoken to a chap in the national archive library for advice ( he gave me the informaion about the number of e webbs and edwin webbs during the periods described). he says that i am going to have a ahrd job unless i can be sure of the sailors full name or at least a rough d.o.b
eventually i will go to london to the archives myself and have a full search but a i live in north wales its not an easy task.
why my dad has to be related to someone so hard to find!!
kim

[liverpool annie]

Hi Kim !

I know you said you had seen

www.hmscaptain .co.uk

but I wonder if you could trace him through the relief fund ??!

http://www.hmscaptain.co.uk/The%20Story/The%20Times%20reports/thetimesrelieffundintro.htm

Some very interesting stuff on that site .... though it's always easier to trace Officers than regular seamen ! .... this page gave a list of probable places to look

HMS Captain 1870           Guide to further research

Various things have been of use in compiling both genealogical and historical information regarding HMS Captain, and these are listed below. There are probably many more, and the author of this web site would be pleased to learn of anything worth adding to this list.

The National Archives (formerly the Public Records Office), Kew, London (www.nationalarchives.gov.uk)

The National Archives building is easily accessible, free, very helpful, and well worth many visits. Apparently there are ten million records available here, but those naval records that have been of help so far are -

ADM 29/98 Record of Service
ADM 154/6 Deaths at Sea
ADM 12/10 Widows Pension list
ADM 115/172 Debts and credits
ADM 23/143 Special Pensions
ADM 139/360 Continuous Service records
ADM 44 Wills, births and marriage certificates

And no doubt many more.

Royal Hospital School, Greenwich
Although the records are also kept at the National Archives (PRO) at Kew (ADM 73/226), this is well worth a separate mention. Set up in what is now the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, London, the school was founded in the 17th century for the support of Royal Navy seaman, their widows and children.

The writer’s own ancestor on HMS Captain had both brothers and his own children there, and ADM 73/226 contains packets of papers for each boy joining the school. This is a goldmine for genealogists, containing the original application forms, records of service for the fathers, lists of siblings, and much more supporting the application.

National Maritime Museum, Greenwich (www.nmm.ac.uk)

Within their big collection of maritime books and  paintings  etc are those relating  to  HMS Captain; various storage facilities away from the main building which house, amongst other things, the models of the ship. In addition, at their Woolwich Arsenal site is housed the Historic Photographs & Ship Plans Section, which has a couple of dozen original prints of the construction plans of HMS Captain. Visit by appointment, where they will provide (for a charge) copies for you. Be aware that the ones produced for this website's author are up to 3 metres long.

Seamans Orphan Home, Berry Head Road, Brixham, Devon

It is probable that some children from those lost from HMS Captain were looked after here. But although attendance records for the late 19th century do not now exist, certainly the school was listed in the 1871 and 1881 UK census returns, and about ten surnames tie up with those on the list of those lost on the St Paul’s plaques.

Worth a look for family tree investigators.

Thesis

Searching the web for references to HMS Captain, details of a thesis entitled “Floating Bodies, Naval Science: science, design, and the Captain controversy, 1860-1870,” 1994 (Max Planck Inst, Berlin) by Dave McGee were found on http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~hapsat/recent_grads.html

The thesis purports to “argue the Captain disaster is best understood as a collapse of the social process of design”.

To which I can add nothing.

Stanley Sandler's article

`In Deference to Public Opinion' - The Loss of HMS Captain, referred to elsewhere has extensive references at the end which may be useful.

 D K Brown, RCNC

Wrote an article published in "Warship Technology" (1989), the journal of the Royal Institution of Naval Architects entitled "The Design and Loss of HMS Captain", the conclusions being included in the "Where Does the Blame Lie" section of this website.

Annie 

[jollyrob]

Hello
alas the relief fund does not have the names of any beneficiarys so its useless. unless i know he had dependants and what sex they are then i could search each orphanage for webb intakes but as most free places were offered to officers ( and my ancestor wasnt one) then it is highly unlikely  i will find anything.
i very much would like to visit the national archives but i live quite far away so i will have to save that for the future. the university of toronto site was of no help, and form what i gathered was more about the design faults of the ship as opposed to crew lists, but even if that is not the case i cant quite work out how i can access more information.
i made a mistake before it wasnt a chap in the national archives i spoke to it was a chap in the nmm.
this is still looking a bit hopeless, but im not going to give up, please keep giving me more suggestions one of them will turn up a winner!
kim