Author Topic: Fighting Zacky lee  (Read 17397 times)

Offline les_looking

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 04 March 09 16:52 GMT (UK) »
as mentioned earlier in this thread, there were 3 Zachariah Lee's
the one who was "transported" (he married Charlotte Hammond) ,

then Zachariah Lee  ‎born about 1798
died 1889 ‎(Age 91)‎ -- Leytonstone Workhouse, pretty sure he married  Rosetta Lee? 
she was born c1799 died c1875

then the 3rd born c1804 died 1875 he also married a Charlotte, and one of their daughters was Rosetta
and also Britannia (Lee/draper?) other children were Dinah, Ambrose and Robert
and before anyone says lol the books do not unravel the mystery
 

Offline boswell37

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 05 March 09 10:46 GMT (UK) »
Perhaps it would be worthwhile if HawkesFH could restate what the current query is and then some of his/her own irrelevant remarks could be discarded.

He/she has not been cautious about repeating folklore that has since been shown to be no more than unsubstantiated hearsay.

And yet, information relating to Joseph BOSWELL, which might suggest a possible solution, has been glossed over and left to others to follow up.

Some contributors have abandoned themselves to expressions of despair while using the postings to develop their own interests. lol lol lol lllol

Dawn

Offline king otg

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 05 March 09 11:32 GMT (UK) »
>:(
I agree that not enough information was placed on the table at the start but also think people are trying their best to unravel the confusion.

My suggestion would be to fill out the details of Zacky 3 (for want of a better description).

Offline les_looking

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 05 March 09 12:08 GMT (UK) »
not sure the original poster has done anything but post info they have found, ie from official records and certificates and their OWN research, instead of relying on research and books that others have looked at/written, someone asked did they know of a boswell connection, and the op stated a Joseph Boswell was the informant and nephew on a death certificate, so not sure how that is hearsay?

MY reading of it they were then asking if the info is true on that certificate then who is his father etc,
of course people are going to post in relation to their own interests, people wthout an interest are not going to be reading this or bother to go further,
if we are going to cut people off at the legs for not having the full information before posting, then there won't be a lot of posts on here :(


Offline boswell37

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 05 March 09 13:40 GMT (UK) »
Well do you want to get to the bottom of it or just talk? There are plenty of heavyweights tuning into this debate with more than enough intelligence and experience to solve any genealogical problem.

In reply #3,  HawkesFH mentioned a Joseph Boswell at St Paul's Middlesex but he is actually found at London St Luke so we were sent the wrong way from the start. In the same reply he/she wondered if the two brothers, Zachariah and Levi Boswell, were children of Urania and Levi. What sort of checks were made for that suggestion to arise? Levi (husband of Urania) was son of Zachariah which I know having been shown the baptism details by TL.

At the very start HawkesFH did not explicitly ask if Zachariah Boswell was the son of a Boswell  (we all have two grandparents). He/she asked if Diana was the granddaughter of a Boswell. So, anybody who tries to grasp what the inquiry is all about is faced with quite a few challenges and is bound to blunder around a bit (to use a worn out expression).

I agree that Joseph Boswell of 1881 St Luke could well be the same as in 1861 Middlesex. (Joseph also appears in 1871 with his wife Sarah at Kensington.) If, in 1875, Joseph Boswell was the nephew of Zachariah Lee it would normally suggest that Zachariah Lee's sister married a Boswell.

Joseph was the son of Levi Boswell and Mary Ann Lee therefore Zachariah Lee was the brother of Mary Ann Lee whose unconvincing baptism (again thanks to TL) suggests that their father was Charles Lee.

So HawkesFH wants to know if Zachariah Lee's mother was a BOSWELL and the answer is 'don't know' since Mary Ann's baptism does not give her mother's maiden surname. But whether or not she was a Boswell is not connected to Joseph Boswell being the nephew of Zachariah Lee. The solution revolves around Charles Lee.

Unfortunately there were two contemporaneous Charles Lee and it is not certain which was which although I understand the wife of one of them was not a Boswell. Over to you .....

Offline boswell37

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #23 on: Friday 06 March 09 10:59 GMT (UK) »

Assuming that a Joseph Boswell is named as nephew of Zachariah Lee at his death in June Quarter 1875, Registered Eton, the 1881 census does show a Joseph Boswell living at St Luke with his wife, Sarah, and four children. Three of the children, including the eldest, Rosina aged 12, have births registered at Holborn and therefore Joseph and Sarah were more or less settled there as early as September Quarter 1869.

However, Joseph Boswell, son of Levi and Mary Ann, was still living with or near his family in 1871. He may have been entered twice [0041/72/32 and 0091/22/38]. There is no child called Rosina with him as there should be if he was the same as the one at St Luke in 1881 so that particular Joseph is not connected.

But this does not mean that Levi and Mary Ann's son, Joseph, was not the witness at Zachariah Lee's death. In fact there is supporting evidence for this and much more.

Both Zachariah and Mary Ann Lee gave a place in Bucks as their birthplace and when Mary Ann married in 1869 her father, Charles - tinker, had the same profession as Zachariah in 1861 (tinman & brazier). The given birthplace for Mary Ann is either Cowley (MDX) or Drayton (BKM). Her given ages are 42/61MDX, 48/71LON, 59/81MDX and 73/91LON which means she was born about 1811-1823.

Supplied by TL is this reference which fits the facts. Mary Ann's first child was born in 1839 and she could easily have been aged 6 or over in 1829 since the parents named in the baptism are the same ones whose two [other?]  daughters were baptised as adults.

MDX Cowley St Lawrence bp17/5/1829 Martha d/o Charles/Anne LEE Gipsy of Cowley

BUT the folklore gives such a Martha Lee as wife of John or Jonathan SMITH [1881HAM-1256/66/22] whose age in 1881 (45) makes her less likely than Mary Ann to be the person named in the above baptism. The ages of Martha Smith's children in 1881 do not support an older Martha although there is some further contradictory evidence.

The promising news (from TL) is that several of the features of Zachariah Lee's family are consistent with those found in the family of Charles and Ann Lee such as the marriage of their daughter, Diana, to John Gregory (father of the Thomas who married Britannia Draper in December Quarter 1859, Registered Watford). Diana married John 2 November 1846 at Eversley Hants where the family were based. The occupation of the father of Diana, Charles Lee, was given as knife grinder which is consistent.

This family of Charles and Ann Lee are well known although no evidence seen, so far, that there was a Zachariah among them.

As is always the case, this particular line of research has reached the point where armchair genealogists need not apply. The next step is the 'multiple theory' stage where only those with an encyclopedic knowledge of the subject feel comfortable. You have to accept being presented with several possible solutions and be prepared to repeat your work looking for more clues to accommodate all the apparent contradictions.

Moderator Comment:  References to a living person removed at that person's request.

Offline HawkesFH

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #24 on: Friday 09 April 10 00:24 BST (UK) »
After 20 years of Family History research, 5 of them spent tutoring the subject at a CRO, I have finally discovered armchair genealogy thanks to a subscription to ancestry.co.uk.  amazing how 'easy' it is.
Middlesex: Hawkes; Hatton; Lee (gypsies); Vincent; Fenwick; Hale; Killingback;
Buckingham: Hawkes; Haddock; Sills;
Cheshire: Broady; Ford; Hughes; Spencer; Johnson; Hewitt; Britland;Darlington; Wilkinson;Snelson;Kirkham; Percival
Lancashire: Ridgway (Chowbent); Dootson; Hope.
Yorkshire: Lumb; Normanton; Ainley; Trafford.
Lincolnshire: Trafford; Capps; Willey; Twidle; Bett;
Saxe-Coburg: Muller/Miller.

Offline ScallyW

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 22 June 10 23:38 BST (UK) »
as prev stated: Moselina Buckley m. Frank Lee. YES indeed,
Daniel levi Boswell who married Mary Ann LEE had Agnes married Frank Buckley and Henrietta married Santalena  (Sam) Buckley.

I've been going through this thread till my eyes have crossed and have a few queries for those in the know....

I have a Morselina Buckley d/o Frank Buckley through a marriage to Elvira Williams BUT I have Morselina marrying Job Lee, not Frank Lee in 1894, West Ham.  Did she marry twice or is my information incorrect?

Second query is re Zachariah Lee.  Boswell37 clarified these 3 people with that name...

1) "Fighting" Zacky Lee (1803-1889) settled in East London with Rosetta. He had many famous descendants although he was not as good a fighter as his brother William.

2) A second Zachariah Lee (1807-1847) preferred to thump the violin instead but was transported for horse stealing. His spouse, Charlotte Hammond [Hn.C4], had a liaison with Riley Boswell who had only one relevant surname alias (Boss) and several forename aliases. You can find out more from the JGLS although it is wrong in many ways especially in calling Clara the sister of Riley.

3) The third Zachariah Lee (bc1811) appears in 1861MDX-0769/91/2 and he was not all that famous. It is pure coincidence that his wife was called 'Charlotte' and came from the same county (Kent) as that attributed to Charlotte Hammond.


So.... who is the Zachariah Lee that died in 1875 then and had a daughter called Diana?  Yes, I get (I think) that he was brother to Mary Ann Lee and therefore son on a Charles Lee but I don't know who Charles Lee is/was so I'm still in the dark.  I also don't know the parentage of Options 2 and 3 above so I'm still wondering whether they tie in to the same Lee family of Option 1.

I've seen a claim of two other Zachariahs that apparently come down from Elisha & Hannah so that's either two more out there or one or two of them are the same person.  I've seen no documentation of this claim though so have no idea how true it is.  One was apparently a brother to David Lee and was born mid 18thC, and a grandson of his was named Zachariah as well.

And maybe this is just confusing matters and needs to be elsewhere, but .... I have Joiner Buckley's wife down as Seni Smith but I've seen it claimed elsewhere that she was also wife to his brother, Samuel Buckley. 

 
Paternal family names: Lee & Smith
Maternal family names: Hollis, Lambert, Donaghue & Osborne.

Offline nenepops

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Re: Fighting Zacky lee
« Reply #26 on: Wednesday 28 July 10 13:14 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

I am looking for some help please as I am a descendent from Famebridge Lee who was married to a William Fryer!
Her parents were Samuel Lee and Parthanea Boswell.
Could anybody help me with any info on this family please, as seem to be at a dead end!
Thank you.
Wednesday 28th July 2010