Very Confused - Help Please!!

[Gigi]

Hi,

I have found the death cert of Francis Norman, the son of John Norman. This confirms that John the father was a shoemaker. This was illegible on Francis' marriage cert. The occupation shoemaker was entered onto the 1871 census when the family were Nevilles, confirming that the Normans & Nevilles were the same family.

Francis Norman's death cert Milton Glasgow states:

Died 15/02/1904 aged 39yrs, Wife: Jessie Dobson, Father: John Norman shoemaker journeyman deceased, Mother: Ellen McClaren previously Campbell formally Norman ms Thomson. The death was registered by daughter Bella Norman.

However still don't know why the Nevilles became the Normans!!

Gillian

[TE17]

Hi Gigi,

I know it has been some time since you posted but I find myself also researching this family (Francis NORMAN) is my 3 great-grandfather. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused!

[brigidmac]

I agree that they possibly never married it could be John Thomas NEVILLE  (* MODIFIED)with 1 name he used officially & one that he was known by
Depends who fills in the forms

I'm wondering if he died before the birth of some of the children who were actually;John  NORMAN's children and if ELLEN & her older children took on the name of their step father ...the man she was living with ...


I had a similar case ..
Her other surnames could be if she was adopted or her mother remarried during her childhood .

In my case 1 unmarried ancestor gave the surname of her "married " lover to her child  but hedged her bets and gave him middle name of the man she eventually married .


 DNA has proved that the married man was the father of her child !

[Gigi]

Hi,

Yes I am no further forward with this conundrum! I had put aside my Scottish research but this has given me the urge to go through it all again!

[brigidmac]

Oops I answered too quickly and got the scenario wrong

William modify the last post .

If John NORMAN  was escaping from the law in Ireland it would make sense to change names the more random the better .

Can you find any records in Ireland of the children's baptism or school attendance.

I didn't understand what you said about the wife of
Does it indicate that she had 2 previous husband's anywhere or could formerly be a birthday name and her mother's changing surname

The same woman who gave 2 family.names to her birth child
Lived with her mother and changed her own surname and her children's in different census .the 2 other  children were registered under birth fathers surname but in census the surnames were very haphazard ...their own their mother's or their step grandfathers

[Gigi]

Hi,
I have just had a look at my notes. It will take me a while to get up to speed on this family!

According to the census data:

1881 living in Stirling b1865 in Ireland unmar, with mother Ellen & family. (his other siblings all born in Scotland )

In 1891 living in Stirling b1863 Ireland marr to Jessie (Dobson).

In 1901 living in Glasgow b 1863 Doune Perth!!?? with wife & children.

There may be a question mark about his place of birth!!

I will have to did a bit deeper and see if I can find any more references to his place of birth. I have no data fom Irish sources.

G

[Gigi]

I have now had a long look at my notes and have spent HOURS on Ancestry, FindMyPast & Scotland's people searching!!

I have been looking at the children of John Neville/Norman & Ellen/Helen Thomson/Thompson/Thomison. Spelling of names wasn't a big thing then!!

I have found in births:
Anne Neville | Thomson | F | 1868 | Kilmadock
Marjory Neville | Thomson | F | 1868 | Kilmadock (died 1871 Kilmadock)
John Nevil | Thomson | M | 1872 Kilmadock
Helen | Nevil | Thompson | F | 1784 Kilmadock (died 1877 Kilmadock).

In the 1881 there is another daughter the mysterious Mrs William & her 2 daughters Maryann & Maggie Williams.

In 1891 census there is
Mary Williams widow b1861 Doune
Margaret 11 born Stirling
Mary Ann 10 born Stirling
John 8 born Stirling.

I have found Mary Ann Williams' birth. It would appear that her mother Mary (the mysterious Mrs Williams) was born before her parents marriage if they did marry!!

Mary Ann Williams | Thompson | F | 1880 6 Dysart


None of the above helps with the Nevile/Norman question but the more data we have, the better, we can understand the family.

Best regards

Gigi

[Gigi]

The MRS Williams was a red herring. I have now been able to see the original image and she is a boarder and not a daughter as was transcribed by Ancestry!!!


Anyway I have some interesting data from the Newspapers on FindMyPast.

Francis Naville alias Norman was guilty of Culpable Homicide and spent 12 months in prison. He was 15 years old at the time. The info is also available on Scottishindexes.com.
The trial was 24 Mar 1880 and he is described as Francis Navile alias Norman son of John Navile shoemaker.

In the Perthshire adveriser 11 Mar 1880, he is described as Francis Navile or Norman. It would seem the the family changed their surname before his trial, so the hiding of their identity doesn't seem to be the reason for the change!!

[Forfarian]

The MRS Williams was a red herring. I have now been able to see the original image and she is a boarder and not a daughter as was transcribed by Ancestry!!!

Now why am I not in the least surprised that Ancestry got it wrong?