Very Confused - Help Please!!

[Gigi]

Hi,

I have been reserching the Norman family from Scotland and have unearthed some curious data and need advice from you experts!!

I have the family in question in the 1881 & 1871 (cannot find them in 1861) as follows:

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In 1871 the family name was NEVILLE and not NORMAN. At first I thought it was just transcription errors but when I tried to locate births on Scotlandspeople I had trouble finding them. A search for Marjory b1870 using the name NEVILLE came up with:

Marjory Neville born July 15 1870 At Doune Kilmadock
Father John Neville Shoemaker
Mother Helen Neville m.s. Thomson
(Their marriage was 31 December 1859 at Coatbridge)
Certificate signed by Helen Neville - her mark
IGI have also:
Helen Nevil, father John Nevil, mother Helen Thompson 19 Oct 1874

Anne Neville, father John Neville, mother Helen Thomson 12 Jan 1868

John Nevil, father John Nevil, mother Helen Thomson 31 Jul 1872

I have the marriage cert for the son Francis Norman in 1883, Stirling:
Father John Norman, ???maker journeyman deceased
Mother Helen Norman ms Thomson

What I cannot figure out is why the family started off as NEVILLE and ended up as NORMAN.

Help please!!

Gillian

[MonicaL]

Hi Gillian

Just more questions than answers unfortunately    Can't see any marriage entry for Helen Thomson to a John Nelville (and variants) or Norman anywhere.  Also can't see the birth entries for daughters Margaret born c. 1860 and Elizabeth born c. 1862 in Coatbridge.

Monica

[Gigi]

Hi Monica,

Thanks for your reply.

I too have not found their marriage in Coatbridge or any birth details there. I looked for John Norman/Neville's death cert on SP but the most likely one I downloaded wasn't him unfortunately!!

My census info 1881 & 1871 has been removed from my message. I have retyped it in my own hand:

1881: In Stirling, Bow Street
William Cameron 10 lodger, born Doune, Perthshire
Annie Norman 13 d, born Doune
Ellen Norman age 38 born Coatridge, servant
Francis Norman 16 son, born Ireland, labourer
John Norman 3 son, b Doune
Maggie Norman 20 d, born Coatbridge, carpet factory
Mrs. Williams 22 daughter, born Doune, domestic servant
Maggie Williams 2 d, born Stirling
Maryann Williams 2 Mo d, born Stirling



1871: In Kilmadock, Chapel Street
Annie Neville 3 d, born Kilmadock, Perth
Elizabeth Neville 9 d, born Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Ellen Neville age 32 born Coatridge Lanark, dressmaker
Frances Neville 7 son, born Ireland
John Neville 40 head, born Ireland, shoemaker
Margaret Neville 11 d, born Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Marjory Neville 8 Mo born Kilmadock, Perth


Gillian

[MonicaL]

Have you looked at Helen's DC to see what info it contains?

Monica

[Gigi]

Hi,

Yes, Helen's Death Cert contains the following:

Helen McClaren widow of "Thomas" Norman shoemaker (2) Thomas Campbell (3) Daniel McClaren Blacksmith journeyman died 30/12/1927 8 Baynes Street Stirling aged 83 yrs, Father Thomas Thomson Pit Sinker deceased, Mother Margaret Thomson ms Carruthers deceased. The death was registered by her daughter Lizzie Buchanan of 14 Buice Street Stirling.

Helen's first husband was John not Thomas!!

Gillian

[MonicaL]

Gillian

I'm not surprised you are confused. Cannot connect to any of the info you have with anything else of relevance 

There is no marriage showing between 1855-65 between a John and Helen (searching for *El*en) Thomson with a surname for John anything like Neville or Norman.

The births of Margaret and Elizabeth I also cannot find in Lanarkshire, even assuming mother was unmarried and they were registered under Thomson.

I also cannot find a Margaret born circa 1860 in the 1861 census with any of the names we have.

I am beginning to think that Helen and John were not actually married. Have you seen any of the other children's birth regs. that you have found to see what date of marriage they show other than the 1859 Coatbridge one? That birth of Francis in Ireland also doesn't make sense. It could be that John came over from Ireland, with a son Francis post 1863/4 and took up with Helen (pure conjecture on my part  ).

Like you, I also cannot find a death for John which you would think would be between 1878-81 given the son John aged 3 that shows in 1881.

Sorry it's such an unhelpful post - I just can't find anything that helps 

Monica

[Gigi]

Hi Monica,

Thanks for trying!! You have arrived at the same door as me!! I will try another search on SP using all names!! I cannot work out where the name Neville comes from. Why invent a name if they were not married? Why not just use the father's name Norman!!

Tricky one this!!

Gillian

[MonicaL]

That's assuming he was Norman to start with 

Monica

[Gigi]

Yes I know what you mean! I did try looking for him in Ireland but not knowing which county posed a bit of a problem! Needless to say I didn't find him!!!

G