Author Topic: Southwick Baptism record look up  (Read 12122 times)

Offline Royalgaz

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 16:29 BST (UK) »
Thank you so much Jan, didn't expect you to go to this much bother for me  :)

I will defnitely make up a small miscellaneous tree and add on all this extra information, maybe one day I will get all the bits to piece it together (sadly I can trace no one else at the moment researching the Upton family).

What an interesting occupation!! That has got my curiousity heightened!!

Thanks Gary

Offline janan

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 17:41 BST (UK) »
No bother - this family have sparked my interest ;D

I'm making up all sorts of stories - maybe John and Virtue didn't marry because John's family wouldn't give permission for him to marry into a smuggler's family? or maybe they went elsewhere and married in secret? who knows ;D And in any case whatever happened to Virtue?? No marriage, no burial ???

Jan ;)
ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

bedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell
buckinghamshire- pain
cambridgeshire- bird, carver
hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey
derbyshire- allsop, noon
devon - griffin, love, rapsey
dorset- rendall, gale
somerset- rendall, churchill
surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge

Offline Royalgaz

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 07 October 08 22:18 BST (UK) »
Okay now have some additional information if anyone can fathom this or has any suggestions, please feel free...................

The person who I contacted with Richard Adams Upton in her tree and had a brother to John Upton (father of said Richard) of James Upton, has come back to me. And she advised the following which I also noticed this, but being silly & confused thought she lived in Norfolk, so can't be aunt and dismissed it.

On the 1861 census Richard Upton is living with his family in Brighton and their is an Aunt called Hannah Upton born in Norfolk living with them.

She traced Hannah Upton back on the 1851 census and sure enough she is living with her husband James Upton born 1771 in Brighton, Sussex. She is widowed in 1861.

Now I have located this marriage certificate on Ancestry which could possibly be them (or is it me clutching at straws  :-\):

29 March 1839 Brighton, Sussex James Upton father John Upton & Hannah Websdale father Mark Websdale

So now this possibly could be the brother to my John Upton, so what if my John Upton was born in Brighton and not Southwick as he claims, would it be possible then the marriage would be located somewhere in Brighton, or am I again just trying to clutch at straws?  :-\.

What does anyone else think? Does this James look like he is brother to my John? Still no closer in some ways though........

Gary

Offline Roy G

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #30 on: Wednesday 08 October 08 07:01 BST (UK) »
As you say, there are so many clutched straws and strands, that you now really need to go back to basics and assemble with supporting evidence,
[1] what you know for certain,
[2] what you strongly suspect
[3] what might be probable
[4] and strands that may give further leads
Roy G


Offline janan

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #31 on: Wednesday 08 October 08 09:48 BST (UK) »
Hi Gary

Hannah looks like a very important lead even if she turns out not to be related in the way you describe.

What Roy suggests would seem to be your next best step - you've got loads of info now but it does need sorting. Then maybe putting on aside for a while? Particularly the mysterious Virtue! I've often found if you leave things alone something will pop up when you least expect :D

Good luck with your continuing research. If you need anything more looking up in West Sussex just shout.

Jan ;)
ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

bedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell
buckinghamshire- pain
cambridgeshire- bird, carver
hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey
derbyshire- allsop, noon
devon - griffin, love, rapsey
dorset- rendall, gale
somerset- rendall, churchill
surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge

Offline Royalgaz

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday 08 October 08 11:27 BST (UK) »
Thank you Roy, you are exactly right and that's what I will go off and do now, so then I now what leads I have followed and not followed through etc, and then hopefully at some point it may merge together if I can find other documents.

Jan, yes you are right my mind has been completely blown by this family, I will take Roy's suggestion and put it all together, then leave it alone for a while. LOL I have another side of the family to research in Sussex, so I may call on your services for a look up in the registers if okay.

Just one more thing before I go that I have just found. Roy mentioned at the begining that there was a girl born to Virtue Adams & John Martin called Virtue Martin (baptised in Southwick) and that the only sibling he could find was a Richard Martin baptised in 1800 (who there were too many to confirm which was possibly him), well I have found a tree on Ancestry which has the same parents John & Virtue and that they had a daughter Martha Martin who married a John Upton in 1832 in Patcham, Sussex. This John was born 1808 in Pyecombe. I will contact this tree member and see if they have any additional information about sibling's, I don't think it's connected to my family but worth enquiring. Just very coincidental that they have Virtue & Adams & Upton which are all key names in my tree!

Thank you both again for all your help, it's good to have someone else to bounce off suggestions and idea's and it's helped me a great deal.

Regards Gary

Offline janan

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 08 October 08 20:53 BST (UK) »
Let us know if anything comes of your enquiries.

Jan ;)
ALL CENSUS DATA INCLUDED IN POSTINGS IS CROWN COPYRIGHT, FROM  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

bedfordshire - farr, carver,handley, godfrey, newell, bird, emmerton, underwood,ancell
buckinghamshire- pain
cambridgeshire- bird, carver
hertfordshire- conisbee, bean, saunders, quick,godfrey
derbyshire- allsop, noon
devon - griffin, love, rapsey
dorset- rendall, gale
somerset- rendall, churchill
surrey/middlesex - douglas, conisbee, childs, lyon groombridge

Offline Roy G

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #34 on: Friday 10 October 08 09:02 BST (UK) »
Hi all those who got involved.  I reviewed what had been discussed over the last few weeks and tried to make some sense out of it.  This is what I came up with
Roy G
************
RICHARD ADAMS UPTON
The movements of Richard Adams Upton are known from 1841 (when he was a servant) to his marriage in 1845 and thereafter.
None of the censuses were thought to show him living with other relatives.

It has now been verified that he was born on January 15th 1818 in Southwick, Sussex and baptised there on 22/02/1818.  The records add that his parents were John Upton (a labourer) & Virtue. His father’s name and occupation (John Upton a labourer) is repeated on Richard’s marriage certificate.

PARENTS
Father John Upton
The only known John Upton of Southwick of about the right age to be Richard’s father married a Rhoda Sturt of New Shoreham in 1828.  The record of that marriage says John Upton was a bachelor so his was not that John’s second marriage. 
So was Richard the illegitimate son of John & Virtue, and if so, are there any Bastardy records for Southwick?

Another, or the same John Upton of Southwick is thought to have married a Frances in 1833.  Was this John a widower and if so, was there a burial record of his Rhoda Upton between 1828-1833?

In 1871, a John Upton, born Southwick c1798 was in the Parish Workhouse in Shoreham.  He was of about the right to have been Virtue's lover and then Rhoda’s and later Frances’ husband, but was he?

Another suggestion that John was born circa 1778 in Brighton has so far been dismissed because he would have been some 20 years adrift from Virtue’s probable age.  Similarly, resulting information that he had a brother James born circa 1771 in Brighton (married to a Hannah) also has been put on hold, but this couple does reappear in someone else’s research.  (See Supplementary notes)

It is thought that the John Upton, son of Thomas and Sarah Upton baptised Southwick 18th Nov 1798 was probably him.  So the following Southwick burials may also be important.
Sarah Upton of Southwick age 54 buried 9th Jan 1829
John Upton of Southwick age 83 buried Sep 1852

Southwick baptisms also show a Lucy Adam(s?) Upton, daughter of Henry and Maria, baptised there in 1852.  So we also have to consider whether the John above had a brother or cousin Henry.
The 1841 census of Brighton shows a Henry Upton born in Southwick c1808 who appears to be lodging with an unrelated family. This Henry married Maria Cripps in Brighton on 24 Nov 1846. 

Supplementary notes
A person was found who also had Richard Adams Upton in her tree and recorded that John Upton (father of Richard) had a brother James Upton, adding there was a Norfolk connection.  She said the 1861 census showed Richard Upton with his family in Brighton with a widowed Aunt called Hannah Upton, born in Norfolk living with them. The 1851 census shows the same Hannah Upton (nee Websdale) living with her husband James Upton who the census stated had been born c1771 in Brighton. Hannah Websdale & James Upton married on 29 March 1839 in Brighton, the groom’s father was given as a John Upton. 

Virtue and her possible parents.
There seem to have been two females in Southwick called Virtue.
In October 1796, a Virtue Adams married a John Martin of Southwick who then produced a daughter Virtue Martin who was baptised in Southwick in Sept 1798. 
Note This couple also had a son called Richard Martin,
Richard, who is recorded as the son of John Martin Smuggler and Virtue his wife, was baptised in Southwick on 26th Oct 1800
Unfortunately, there are too many Richard Martins on the censuses to be sure which Richard he was in later years.

The 1841 Southwick census (ref HO107 F1/6 p 7 Steyning) shows a John Martin aged 73 ag lab and Virtue Martin age 70 living together. 
So a death entry found on FreeBMD (Mar quarter 1843 MARTIN Virtue, Steyning district (Southwick?)  ref 7 346) probably refers to the elder of the two Virtue Martins, (nee Adams).

There are no other references to Virtue Martin junior, so was she Richard’s mother and if so, what happened to her?
Suggestions range from her dying elsewhere, marrying another first name, or joining the thousands that went voluntarily or forcibly to Australia or Canada.

Supplementary notes

Ancestry shows that A John & Virtue Martin may also have had a daughter Martha Martin who married a John Upton in 1832 in Patcham, Sussex. This John Upton was born c1808 in Pyecombe, and Patcham, like Southwick, is known to have had smuggling connections

Offline Roy G

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Re: Southwick Baptism record look up
« Reply #35 on: Friday 10 October 08 14:11 BST (UK) »
Gary
If you do deciide to look at the Martins in greater detail, I think you will have your work cut out for their movements are rather complex. 

John Martin & Virtue Adams, seem to have left Southwick after the birth of their son Richard and relocated jointly to the parishes of Ringmer in East Sussex and Patcham in West.  The baptisms of their children show what I mean. 
Virtue Martin                   bapt Southwick Sept 1798
Richard Adams Martin     bapt Southwick 26 Oct 1800
The couple then moved to Patcham/Ringmer and had the following other children.
Sarah              bapt 18 Jan 1803 Patcham
             Bapt 16 Jan 1803 Ringmer
William              Bapt 12 May 1805 Patcham
                                       Bapt 12 May 1804 Ringmer
Hester/Esther          bapt 13 Feb 1807 Patcham     Married John Dodd 1829
             Bapt 15 Feb 1807 Ringmer
Jane              bapt 26 Feb 1809 Patcham
              Bapt  7 Mar 1808 Ringmer
Martha               bapt  9 June 1811 Patcham    Married John Upton 1832
             Bapt 9 July 1811 Ringmer
Mary               bapt 20 Feb 1814 Patcham
              Born 8 Dec 1813 bapt 20 Feb 1814 Ringmer
Mark William Martin           born 15 June 1816 bapt 10 Aug 1816 Patcham
                                        born 15 June 1816 bapt 10 Aug 1816 Ringmer
                                      (father of Mark recorded in both parishes as William?)
All the above were baptised with parents John Martin & Virtue Adams.  It is as though the marriage in Southwick had not been recognised. 
If you feel these to be your Richard's mother's parents, you may have to start looking in two parishes to try to find out what happened to their daughter who was also called Virtue.

All I can say is that I dont envy you the task for this couple really moved about a bit, probably with the sole aim of thwarting family historians.

Roy G