Turner/Emery

[Old-Bonez]

It's amazing just what you think of when you get a little spare time.

The Baptisms of John Turners children were found in St Johns, Longton... All except the first born William. Apparently this was before St. Johns Church was finished but it also coincides with when potter John first set up in Lane End (Longton)

Reading up my info on potter John I find he "was established by 1756 in a partnership with R. Banks, making white stoneware, in a factory on the site of what is now Copeland-Spode, in Stoke upon Trent. He moved to Lane End in 1759. (1762 according to Jewitt)"

Since William was born in 1762 it is possible he was christened in a church close to what is now the Copeland Spode factory in Stoke. A quick look up reveals this factory to be in Church Street.

In fact the church could be the same as where Josia Spode himself is buried .... St. Peter Ad Vincula, Stoke.

Could somebody take a look for the birth/christening of William which I have as abt. 1762. (Parents John & Ann Turner)

I don't know of any other Turners that may be mentioned in any Stoke registers in this timeframe.

As always... no rush!

Thanks, Rob

[crystal lady]

Hi Rob and Joy

Hope you are both well.

I managed to get an hour at the records office yesterday and found a few Turner's but not sure if they are the ones you want Rob, so I will post them and you can ponder over them.

Wombourn, Stafford - marriage

John Turner & Sarah Taylor - 18 Nov 1703

Unfortunately it did not mention  by licence or anything else for that matter!  I checked the baptisms for Wombourn from 1701 to 1714 but have to admit defeat on these as they were very illegible and Lichfield does not have any transcriptions for them - don't know if Stafford have any?

I also checked the baptisms for St. Peters, Stoke from 1759 - 1770 and found the following:

1761 6 Dec, John son of John & Marg't Turner, Lane End.

1762 3 Mar, W'm son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke.

1764 22 Nov, Walter son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke.

Those were the only Turners within that time frame.  I am also wondering if 'Marg't has been entered instead of 'Mary' or could be I am reading it wrong (the fiches were quite hard going and faint in places) - Joy, maybe you could have a look at that one and see what you think of it?  A second pair of eyes is often the answer.

That was all I had time to check - let me know what you think

Best wishes

Crystal

[Dozey_Joy]

Hi Rob and Crystal

I managed another visit to Stafford last week.

With regards to the baptism at St Peters, Stoke in 1761 I agree with Crystal and it is Marg't. The transcript of the register agreed with us as well.

I asked about wills and at that time wills were proved by the church courts so any wills for Staffordshire should be at Lichfield as that's the diocese Staffordshire comes under. I was also told that as Henry described himself as a gentleman there is a good chance he left a will. As I said the wills themselves are at Lichfield although they do have a copy of the index at Stafford. I didn't have time to look at that.

I did look at the registers for St Marys, Stafford to see if I could find what happened to Henry and Prudence after their marriage and I found the following.

Baptisms
January 1759       Prudence daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner born 11 baptized 12
February 1760     Henry son of Henry and Prudence Turner born 8 baptized 9
April 1761            John son of Henry and Prudence Turner born 9 baptized 10
November 1762   Sarah daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner born 5 baptized 7

Burials
December 1762   Sarah daughter of Henry and Prudence Turner buried 19
August 1771        Henry Turner buried 13

So it looks as though they stayed in Stafford and that's where Henry died.

It also looks like Prudence remarried on the 15th April 1773 as there was a marriage for Prudence Turner,widow to a James Lander of Sandon. Also the daughter Prudence married a John Webb in 1775 and there's also a thomas Turner marrying a Sarah Sowker in 1771. All three marriages were by license. If you want the exact details from the register for the marriages let me know as I have got them.

I'm not sure where we go from here but I will let you know if I come up with any ideas.

Best Wishes

Joy

[Old-Bonez]

Joy

Well those finds are very very interesting.

I've spent the last month working on another branch breakthrough and received Pam Inders chapter she has written on Mary Ann Turner. Admittedly I had put aside this particular line of research and I'm very appreciative of your efforts here on keeping it going.

I've spent an hour re-reading everything to simply get my head back into it. At first I was very excited because all the family names were appearing but looking into them the dates all appear to be one generation out.

If potter John Turner had a older brother named Henry then these could logically be his children but then again as his widower father Henry  married the widow Prudence Sutton (which was found in St Marys Stafford 1757) then these would be the children of that marriage and potter Johns half brothers & sisters which appears to me the most likely situation. I'm just a little perplexed as to why the father Henry would name the children of his second wife the same names of his first wifes children.

Enough of this .... let me mull it over for a week or so to get it back in my head.

Rob

[Old-Bonez]

Crystal

Having the chance now to look at it with a fresh mind I have noticed something. Your baptism find of 1762 & 1764 for William and Walter I had just realised that they were for John & Mary and not Ann. My head screams Ughhhhh!

The William fits into my family perfectly and there is a timeframe slot for the Walter whose name is also a family name listed on the Turner Tomb (not the same person though).

You had trouble on the 1761 find thinking it was Margaret but then agreeing that it wasn't. Could it be something like "MaryAnn" or a listing of both names with a symbol between meaning birth name?? (Sorry for the wild guess that needs to be asked of an expert).

hehehe... We are starting to get more puzzle pieces than are falling into place

Rob

[Old-Bonez]

Hi Crystal & Joy

After 2 years of searching and having finally found the family of the potter John Turner I'm re visiting my old posts to see what else can be linked in.

Just for clarification his parents were Walter Turner (abt1717 Newport) & Mary Phipps (abt1706) Married Castle Church, Stafford 1734. Grandparents were John Turner (1681) & Sarah Taylor. That line is now pretty clear. see http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,340410.0.html

Joy ... you were looking at the family of widower Henry S Turner who married widow Prudence Sutton. I cannot relate him into my tree however he was a witness at potter Johns sisters wedding (Sarah)so he must be family and I'm guessing she lived with him after her own mothers death in 1756 (Walter & Mary).

You listed children and deaths from the church register as well as marriages of the children. You also came across a " Thomas Turner marrying a Sarah Sowker in 1771" ... Apparently he is not a son to Prudence Sutton so he must be of Henry's first unknown wife. Would you still have your information on him??

Crystal ... Your find of "John Turner & Sarah Taylor - 18 Nov 1703" was spot on and the Grandparents of the potter John. You also produced an interesting find that I'll have to look into because it is a great fit but to the wrong mother. You wrote "1762 3 Mar, W'm son of John & Mary Turner, Stoke" .... Note this!! all records show that potter John Turner and his wife Ann Emery  gave birth to William 3 Mar 1762 Stoke. He was their 1st born son after marrying in Oct 1759.

If your information is correct then everybody has the wrong birth date for our William. Unless of course she was known as Mary ... nahh!

Then again you had:
1656/7 4 Apr, Mary daughter of John & Mary turner - baptism Castle Church ... where Henry S Turner was from

Castle Church & St Marys Stafford as well as Stoke & Lane End/Longton ... They have to be family!!

I'd appreciate if either of you could take a fresh look at this to see if I have missed anything obvious that would link these Turners

Rob

[Dozey_Joy]

Hi Rob

You must be pleased to have finally solved the problem of John's parents. It just shows that answers turn up when you least expect.

I'll have a look and see if I've still got my notes and next time I get to the Records Office in Stafford I'll have another look through the parish records and see if I can tie it all together. I don't know when I'll get chance to go - I broke my ankle earlier in the year and I'm just getting back to normal now.

Having read your other post on the Shropshire board it's all starting to make sense. Newport is only just in Shropshire and just a few miles away from Weston Park and Ivetsey Bank. Brewood is then just a few miles further east. Rickerscote is now an area of Stafford which explains the family's connection with Stafford. It's on the southern edge of Stafford but I guess at the time we are talking about it would have been considered a separate place.

Anyway I'll see what I can find.

Joy

[Queensware]

I am interested in the Turner family as they relate to Thomas Whieldon, perhaps the most eminent Staffordshire Potter of the mid 18th century.  I agree that there is no way John Turner was born at Brewood. I would like to suggest he may be related to a London family.

Sarah Turner was Thomas Whieldon's 3rd wife and they married in 1776.  The marriage bond in Lichfield archives gives lots of good information. Thomas Whieldon's dates are 1719-1795 Sarah's dates are 1749- 1828.  I think it too great a co-incidence that John Turner the potter was noted in the marriage agreement and the oldest son was called John Turner Whieldon - for there not to be a family connection - but I am still struggling to find it.

Sarah Turner lived with her father, John Turner of Cumberland Street in the parish of St. Mary le Bone Co Middlesex.  The marriage at Stoke-upon-Trent was by marriage license.  Thomas stood as his own bondsman and was not referred to as a potter but as Thomas Whieldon Esq.  (note John Turner the potter was associated with a pottery sales business in London - was this inherited from his father?)

Thomas and Sarah Whieldon had 6 children and by their marriage agreement the real estate was to be entailed upon the eldest son of the marriage and an additional ₤5,000 was to be settled amongst any other children.  This secured the Turner family money about ₤10,000 brought into the marriage by Sarah.  One of the signatories to the marriage settlement was James Christie of Pall Mall, parish of St. James Westminster, Auctioneer; and one of the executors nominated in the subsequent will was John Turner, potter of Lane End Staffordshire.

Their first son was John Turner Whieldon - I think he was disabled/disadvantaged in some way as a younger brother - George always acted for him - he was a lawyer in London. 

I have a little more if anyone is interested.

[Old-Bonez]

Hello Queensware

The Turner family this discussion was about is the potter John Turner and his sons William and John. The period of the various potbanks of interest is say before 1762 to 1806. The book "The Turners of Lane End" by Bevis Hillier would be a good starting point to read up. (1965 Corey, Adams & Mackay)

Like yourself, I've often been confused by the name similarities when researching my Turners. The earlier mentioned names, dates & places are indeed correct for this particular family.

A recent article by Rodney Hampson of the Northern Ceramics Society titled "Turner Origions" (I think) reveals his birth and family going back a further 2 generations)

In the past I have briefly looked at the Sarah Turner who was the 2nd or 3rd wife of your Thomas Wheildon only to come to the conclusion that the London based Turners were of no apparent connection to my Shropshire & Staffordshire Turners.

My John Turner had a display room in London which I presume was run by his elder brother Walter. Death information reveals he was a Merchant of Sackville St London d.1776. I have no information if he ever married however your Sarah Turner was earlier than this date so this is no possible lead.

I'm happy to provide you with this families information ... simply send me your email in a PM.

Regards, Rob