Mystery 'Nurse Child' Fred Talbot.

[Rosie May]

Some one suggested I sent off for the birth cert. of a Frederick Talbot born in Islington in 1900 1B 318 which may have thrown some light on this mysterious 'Nurse Child' Fred Talbot.

I have received the copy back today but it unfortunately doesn't help at all as the birth date is 25th June 1900 and the parents names are James Barnard John Talbot and Ada Elizabeth Talbot formerly Hitchins, so I still cannot tie this Fred Talbot in with my Grandad Frederick Butler.

Just thought I would let any one know who may be interested in this post.  Thank you.

Rosie

[toni*]

have you looked under Male Butler / Talbot births

[Rosie May]

Hi Toni - how and where do I look for Male Butler/Talbot births?

Sorry for my ignorance but am a newby

Rosie

[toni*]

hi Rosie
when searching the BMD just put in Male (or female) in instead of a forename, then surname as usual

[Rosie May]

Thank you Toni I will try that tomorrow.

Rosie

[Valda]

Kentish Town registers in Pancras registration district but clearly there are no likely registration in that district.

It might be worth checking through Lambeth and Pancras poor law records to see if you can find the child entering the poor law system (workhouse, children's home) and exiting to the Butler family. A nurse child doesn't necessarily mean they went through the poor law system, it could be a private arrangement, but that is somewhere to start. If the child went through the poor law system then the Butler family would be doing the equivalent of modern day fostering with a local authority. Sometimes nurse children became part of the 'foster' family and were 'adopted' (though at this time adoption was informal as there was no such legal process until 1927) and their surnames were changed as they were absorbed into their new family.


Regards

Valda

[Rosie May]

Hi Valda - I have found records of Frederick Butler entering the Lambeth Workhouse in 1906 with his 'father' Walter Butler.  But because I cannot tie these two together before that time I am still inclined to think that the Nurse Child Fred Talbot may have been the same person as Frederick Butler, with the surname having been changed, as you mentioned.

I have trawled through the BMD as suggested by Toni and have found a Cecil Talbot Butler born in 1898 in Leicestershire.  Although the Christian name differs the two other names match and also Walter Butler (the 'father') is in the 1901 census in Leicestershire as a boarder so I just wonder?? Could this be an illegitimate child of Walter Butler maybe??   

Rosie

[Valda]

Hi Rosie

Cecil T Butler aged 3 and born Leicester is on the 1901 census in Leicester RG13 3007 folio 163, son of Frederick William Butler and Emily nee Cole (married Pembroke 1886).

It really is always better to go from the known information. Otherwise we have a tendency to grasp at coincidences which have a habit of causing us to shoe horn the information into 'the fit we want'

Cecil Talbot Butler born Leicester 1898 for Frederick Talbot born 1899 Kentish Town.
It also requires the more complex hypothesis of illegitimacy in Leicestershire, the taking of the child away from his natural mother (while Walter lurks suspiciously back in Leicestershire) and the acceptance by Walter's wife of her husband's son with another woman.
It is a more complex explanation than a simple fostering of a child through the London poor law system or a private arrangement, which allows the family to become attached and ultimately informally to 'adopt'.
Simple explanations should be persued first and eliminated before turning to the more complex.
I know that isn't necesarily the easy answer, because obviously the Butlers as genetic parents would be a lot simpler to research, but Fred Talbot could still be a child from the Butler's extended family. Regardless of whether he is or isn't, you will have to research him to either try to prove he is Frederick Butler, or to eliminate him. He is at present the only known candidate you have.

The internet is wonderful but it does work against us as well, by having some records instantly available but many others only available through hard work in record offices. Consequently we keep coming back to what we can easily access because we very much want the answer to the puzzle and we want it now.

I'm afraid my last advice which was to work from the known information from the 1901 census hasn't changed.

It might be worth checking through Lambeth and Pancras poor law records to see if you can find the child entering the poor law system (workhouse, children's home) and exiting to the Butler family.

It isn't easy and it might ultimately be fruitless but unless any further information is known or becomes available, perhaps through descendents of the other Butler children, it is a logical set of records that could be searched.

Regards

Valda

[Rosie May]

Yes you are right Valda - I was clutching at straws really, so thank you for finding Cecil Talbot Butler on the 1901 census, which eliminates him.

I do believe that Fred Talbot, Nurse Child, turned out to be the same person as Frederick Butler, but as I cant find a birth for either I dont know where to go next.

You say about looking at the Workhouse records etc. but I have done this and have traced Frederick Butler entering there and leaving to join the Army years later.  It is the years from Frederick Butler/Fred Talbot birth (supposedly in 1898) til entering the Workhouse in 1906 that I am struggling with.

What are Poor Law Records and where do I find them and do you mean I try and find Fred Talbot through this way?

Thank you for your advise in this.

Rosie