Mystery 'Nurse Child' Fred Talbot.

[Valda]

If Fred Talbot was a nurse child (what might be in this case a modern day equivalent of being fostered) placed with the Butler family though the then equivalent of local authorities (poor law authorities) then there should be some records of his arriving into poor law care. The two most likely unions which might have records for him are either Pancras (Kentish Town - where Fred was born) or Lambeth (where the Butler family was living). The poor law union would then pay 'foster parents' - modern term, to look after the child making regularly payments for the child's upkeep.

It is known Fred was a nurse child at the time of the 1901 census. So between his birth and the 1901 census is the period when the records might be worth investigating further. Workhouse records are poor law records and so are workhouse infirmary records, and children's homes run by the poor law unions.

At the LMA will be the Pancras and Lambeth poor law union records. Even searching what records are held for the two unions 1898-1901 may find nothing (and it helps if you know your way around such records) as if he did enter the poor law system it may not be through either of these two unions. There are quite a few London poor law unions (as there are today London local authorities, who replaced them).

Fred may not have gone through the poor law system. He may have arrived with the Butlers through a strictly private arrangement, in which case there will be no records. The private arrangement could be purely financial but then it would be more surprising that he became an 'adopted' member of the family, or he could be a child of a relative of the Butlers (have you investigated this possibility)?

His lack of birth registration could be because his birth was not registerd or it was registered but in a different surname. That would indicate he was probably born illegitimately, but without the necessary evidence that isn't proven. If that was the case searching for him in poor law records might be difficult if you can't even be sure what name 'he was using'.

Nurse child originally meant a child that was given to a local woman who breast fed it for the mother and looked after the child through the first couple of years of its life. The child was therefore not necessarily from a poor family, as up until the first half of the C19th this was common practice amongst wealthy families.

I hope this help clarifies the possibilities there might be in researching poor law records further, but I would suggest reading the LMA guide on the subject

LMA Information Leaflet 26 Poor Law Records in London and Middlesex.

http://213.86.34.248/NR/rdonlyres/513E3F59-2AC2-4D4F-BF6E-B77A5779BEDB/0/infono26.pdf

Regards

Valda

[toni*]

Rosie May
i was suggesting perhaps a Male Butler or a Male Talbot child born in the correct area at the correct time might be the missing Frederick - after the child was named the cert would have been updated in the margin of the birth certifcate but the index was not changed.

[Rosie May]

Hi Valda and thank you for the information. 

I agree that it seems logical now that my next step be researching further the Poor Law Records for Fred Talbot.  This I shall have to pay a LMA researcher to do as when I went  there before re Frederick Butler all the machines were being used and I only managed to have one hour before closing so I ended up paying a Researcher in the end anyway!

It is only recently that I have believed there may be a connection between Frederick Talbot and Frederick Butler, which is why I haven't persued this much before.

And to Toni - Yes I appreciate yours was just a suggestion but one I felt worth following up at the time.

Thank you again to you both for your help and advice and to all you people who have been interested in this posting.

I will keep you updated with any developments.

Rosie

[Rosie May]

Today I received a reply from the London Metropolitan Archives stating there was nothing to indicate a name change in their previous findings for Frederick Butler.  Also that they do not hold records of surname changes of children in the care of a Board of Guardians.

If I wanted them to search for Fred Talbot in the same records in which they sought Frederick Butler they would be willing to do so but  if they found reference to Fred Talbot that surely this would indicate he was indeed a different person.

They felt such a search would not be worthwhile given the query over whether a name change definitely occurred. 

They said if they were to search the records of St Pancras for Fred Talbot born in Kentish Town without having any information to suggest he was in their care, this is probably unlikely to be successful.

Also  Dawn on this site  has made a list of seven possible churches where a baptism may have taken place.  She has started looking from August 1898 to 1906 but had no luck so far. 

Thats how things stand at the moment.  Will let you all know of any developments.

Rosie

[Valda]

The LMA are giving you sensible advice because their charges are expensive and this would be a time consuming search. They have weighed up the possibility of success considering the expense and since they don't want to cause you expensive false hopes they are advising against it.
The only way I would contemplate attempting something like this is to do it myself or employ a less expensive researcher who had undertaken research in poor law records before, but the LMA is correct the chances of success are not high.

I think they are saying below that they think it would be difficult to prove it was the same person and without sufficient evidence to the contrary is could just as likely be a different person (really depends whether the Talbot name in any of the records was linked to the Butler surname - only likely in the Lambeth poor law records). There are no records in the poor law of name changes until it became a legal process with adoption in 1927. Anything before that was an informal process between families.

If I wanted them to search for Fred Talbot in the same records in which they sought Frederick Butler they would be willing to do so but  if they found reference to Fred Talbot that surely this would indicate he was indeed a different person.

If the family did unofficially adopt Fred Talbot and he didn't come to them through the poor law system (he could have come to them for fostering via any private orphanage) then for many families such children came from members of their extended family. Have you been able to eliminate the Butler parents' siblings as potential parents?

If he did come into their family they may have chosen to have him baptised in their local church. Such a baptism won't give his parentage, unless it states the Butlers, but would help establish the child in the Butler family and may confirm a date of birth.


Regards

Valda

[Rosie May]

Thank you Valda,

I appreciate the advice from LMA as it proves they are not just 'rip off merchants'.  I have used them in the past re my search for Frederick Butler and they were very good and worth every penny they charged.

In reply to your question asking if I have been able to eliminate the  two other Butler Sons as potential parents:

Well, I found Sons Walter O  on the 1901 census ( aged 24) being in Wandsworth Prison (wonder what for?) and as for Lionel G, (who would have been 23 in 1901) I haven't been able to trace after finding both parents and the two Sons together in 1891 living at 35 Hutton Street, St. Brides, London.

So, No I cannot rule out either of the two Sons as being the father but, again, dont know how to go about finding out?

Any suggestions from any of you kind people please?

Thank you

Rosie

[Valda]

Since his surname was Talbot I might have expected the connection to be through a female line and less likely a male sibling of Walter's (in which case he would have to have been an illegitimate son who would be much more likely to end up the responsibility of his mother's family). If Walter did not have any female siblings what of Jane's family?

Regards

Valda

[avm228]

Walter Lovick Butler did have a sister, Alice Louisa Butler.

IGI extracted baptism for her:

ALICE LOUISA BUTLER 
Birth:  06 DEC 1866   
Christening:  05 JUN 1867   St Sepulchre, London, London, England
 
Father:  FRANCIS RICHARD BUTLER
Mother:  SARAH

She's with her parents, aged 3, in 1871 (Alice Butler): RG10/605/47/34
Still with parents, aged 14, in 1881 (Alice L. Butler): RG11/330/32/57

Not with parents after that.  Dad, Francis R. Butler is in the City with his second wife Mary Ann in 1891:RG12/239/5/11.  He died Dec qtr 1893 aged 66.

So what happened to Alice Louisa?

She is not the Somerset-born Alice Louisa Butler who married Robert Derisley, Dec 1890 Kensington.
She is not the Kent-born Alice Louise Butler who married Robert John Castle, Mar 1890 Thanet

I think she needs to be eliminated one way or another - otherwise I might start developing entirely speculative and wishful theories that she was the Alice Butler who married Horatio Talbot Jun 1919 Camberwell, and that this sealed a long-standing relationship in which she'd given birth to Horatio's illegitimate son Fred in 1898 and had to leave him with her brother and his wife

Edited: OK I think we can forget the speculative theories - Alice appears to have married Henry Ridsdale Jun 1886 Bethnal Green  - family in Southwark in 1891: RG12/340/72/68.  Looks like Fred's mother will have to be found elsewhere...


Anna

[Valda]

So how about the Ballantine siblings? They look older so possibly a child of a niece or nephew?

1871 census RG10 7?8 folio 92
156 Cator Street Camberwell
James Ballantine 69 Head Married M Rev Officer Excise Returns London Middlesex
Elizabeth Ballantine 58 Wife Married  Newington Surrey
Jane Ballantine 21 Daughter Dressmaker Camberwell Surrey
Annie E Ballantine 17 Daughter Dressmaker Camberwell Surrey
Daniel J Ballantine 12 Son Camberwell Surrey

Regards

Valda