Help with service papers 1859 - 1881

[SueJW]

Hi

I have my gt grandfathers, Thomas Hardy, discharge papers which show he served in India between 1867 and 1878 (he enlisted 1859) He then goes on to serve in the Afghan War 1878/79/80. He was awarded the Afghan Medal.

My problem comes in that I don't know what Regiment he served in. His papers don't state Regt, only 1st Batt 5th Fusiliers. As he came from Norfolk I assumed Norfolk Regt but can find no mention of that Regt in Afghan.

Is there any way I can find out or anyone who knows the answer?

Many thanks for any information

Sue

[km1971]

Hi Sue

His papers don't state Regt, only 1st Batt 5th Fusiliers.

This is his regiment - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Regiment_of_Foot - aka 5th Foot, or the 5th Regiment of Foot, or the 5th Fusiliers, etc.

They would have had two battalions and a Depot, and men could be transferred between each. Does his papers give his place and date of birth? If not you will have to visit Kew and look in the Muster and Pay Lists (WO12) for when he enlisted or was discharged.

If you google the names of any clasps (bars) on the medals you will find out what he went through to earn the medals.

Ken

Useful link - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/step4.htm

[SueJW]

Hi Ken

Many thanks for that info.

Thomas was born in East Dereham, Norfolk, which is why I assumed the Norfolk Regiment.

I do have his discharge papers which gives all personal details such as birthplace, age, physical description, health etc. I'm also pleased to report he had a glowing writeup and gained 5 good conduct badges  (Unlike his son who was court marshalled and kicked out the army at the start of WW1, but that's another story!)

I confess to being puzzled why he joined Northumberland. He actually enlisted in East Dereham. I really would have expected Norfolk Regt. Ah well, guess I'll never know.

One other question please. As he signed up in Dec 1859 and doesn't appear to have left England until 1867 (in London and Woolwich in '64) any brainwaves as to where he may appear on the 1861 census? I'm assuming in barracks somewhere so any idea where the 5th had barracks at that time?

Thanks again for your help, most appreciated

Sue

[liverpool annie]

Hi Sue !

Our friend Garen has a great website about the Afghan War ! it may give you some background

http://www.garenewing.co.uk/angloafghanwar/

Annie 

[SueJW]

Hi Annie

Yes, I found it this morning. Very good.

Thanks for thinking of me though 

Sue

[km1971]

Hi Sue

The 1862 Army List, which would have been compiled at the end of 1861, says that the 1st Battalion were in Portsmouth, and the 2nd Battalion were in Mauritius. Depots of both were in Colchester.

It also says that the 1st Bn returned from India 7 July 1861 - so they just missed the census, and the 2nd Bn embarked for Mauritius in August 1858. So only the depots will be in the 1861 census. So I suggest you start in Colchester. Of course he may have been on leave or on detachment to a nearby town.

The official title was 5th Regiment of Foot (Northumberland Fusiliers), and they wore bright green facings (collars and cuffs) on their scarlet tunics.

The Norfolk Regiment was created in 1881 from the 9th Foot (East Norfolk) and 54th Foot (West Norfolk). The latter had a Depot in Colchester in 1861, so maybe he tried them but they did not have a vacancy.

The GC 'badges' were actually inverted stripes worn above the left cuff. I would also expect him to be awarded the LSGC (Long Service Good Conduct) medal after 18 years (after the age of 18) if he won 5 badges. Corporals did not wear their GC badges, as they were expected to be of good conduct. Each GC badge was worth 1d a day extra, so would have made a big difference on the basic Private's pay of 1s 1d or 1s a day - they cut the pay in the army at some point after the Crimean War.

Ken

[SueJW]

Hi Ken

Thank you so much for all that wonderful info. And, I can report, I found him in Colchester, 1861. Yes he did get the LSGC medal as well. I wonder what happened to them?!

My military history is very sketchy to say the least but I'm slowly learning 

One other thing, on his discharge he was a Lance Corporal, so he did reasonably well, all be it a low rank 

Once again thanks for all your help. It all helps to make our ancesters come alive so to speak.

Sue

[km1971]

Strictly speaking Lance Corporal (and also the Lance Sergeant) was an appointment rather than a rank. It was used to see if men had the ability and desire to give orders to their mates. A company only had a certain number of paid Lance Corporal places and men would often get the appointment for up to a year without being paid. This paid/unpaid service would usually be recorded on his record.

Ken

[SueJW]

Hi Ken.

I don't have Thomas's full service record only his discharge and medical records. All I know is he's called Lance Corporal on the discharge papers. I assume that means he was so on discharge. Nowhere on the papers does it say when he became one.

Once again, thanks for the info

Sue