Offer:Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990

[Canarygirl]

Hello

I am trying to find more information about my Great Grandfather William Mckenzie born 6th May 1865 - Greenwich - Woolwich Dockyard. Who on the 1911 was born in Portsmouth 1868 and was an A B Sailor Mercantile on the SS Harrison.

According to my mother he did the trade routes between Liverpool and Malta and was a Pilot.

Rachel

[glenburn]

Hi BY

The subject of portlandlib's post (Alfred DAVIES) could well be one of the seven victims of the ALFRED H READ disaster buried in Rake Lane Cemetery in Wallasey, as mentioned here :-

http://www.wallaseycemetery.co.uk/Alfred%20H%20Read.htm

This brief report of course supports your own theory (and mine, incidentally) that the vessel sank after striking a mine rather than as a result of enemy action.

Will see if I can find a grave for young Alfred during one of my future visits to Wallasey Library.

Best regards
G

[BY]

Hi, Glenburn,

Many thanks. A further possibility is that the mine might have been one of our own, perhaps adrift from a defensive minefield; or even that ALFRED H READ had strayed unintentionally into a defensive minefield. We simply do not know.

Hi, Canarygirl,

Am sorry to advise that there is no record of a McKenzie (or Mackenzie) in the LPS until  well into the second half of the 20th century.

Best wishes,

BY

[Canarygirl]

Hi BY

Thank you for looking. Will try and find him in some other navel records.

Canarygirl

[glenburn]

The following may be of interest to recent posters fjaney and portlandlib who, if I've got my facts right, will be blood-related :-

The 21 year-old Alfred DAVIES lost from the ALFRED H READ in 1917 was the son of William & Annie DAVIES of 20 Denton Drive, Liscard.

This William DAVIES (b1851 Birkenhead) was himself a Liverpool Pilot, being the DAVIES W (iii) listed in Barrie Youde's book 'Beyond the Bar' as born 1851, licenced 1872, retired 1917, died 1930.

On 19 August 1877, in Liverpool St Silas, pilot William DAVIES married Anna Maria MARTIN, daughter of John Alfred MARTIN and Anna Maria WILLIAMS, who were married on 15 February 1853, also in Liverpool St Silas.

John Alfred MARTIN is undoubtedly the 1854 journeyman pilot of that name mentioned in davecigar's post of Tuesday 28 December 2010, and who seemingly died in 1856, hence :-

1861 Census
66 Kilshaw Street, Everton
Anna M MARTIN, W, 30, pilot's widow, born LAN Liverpool
Anna M, daur, 8, LAN Liverpool
John A, son, 5, LAN Liverpool

[The five year-old son in this census is almost certainly Liverpool Pilot MARTIN J A E (John Alfred Edward), born in 1856 and listed in Youde/Tebay as licenced 1877, retired 1915, died 1916.]

In his marriage entry in 1853 John Alfred MARTIN senior gave his age as 25 and his father's name as Hugh, suggesting that this is quite likely his baptism :-

20 January 1828
Liverpool St Peter
John Alfred MARTIN
Parents Hugh MARTIN and Mary
Abode - Stanley Street
Occupation - joiner

Other children of joiner Hugh MARTIN and his wife Mary (all baptised in Liverpool St Peter) include :-

6 Oct 1822     James
26 Jul 1824     Jane
21 Aug 1826   Anne
28 Feb 1832   Sarah
01 Nov 1833   Joseph

1841 Census
Thomas Street, Liverpool
Hugh MARTIN, 45, joiner, Y (born in Lancashire)
Mary, 45, Y
Jane, 15, Y
John, 10, Y
Joseph, 5, Y

Since ages in the 1841 were rounded down to the nearest five years (supposedly only for people over the age of 15), the above 10 year-old John looks like John Alfred born 1828 and five year-old Joseph the one born in 1833.

So the two Liverpool Pilots of those names were in fact brothers - John Alfred marrying Anna Maria WILLIAMS in 1853 and Joseph marrying Ellen CHARLTON from Southport in 1860.

Their parents' marriage quite likely being this one :-

9 December 1821
Liverpool St Thomas
Hugh MARTIN and Mary KNEEN

The fact that joiner Hugh MARTIN called his eldest son James, and that two (possibly three) of his sons became Liverpool Pilots, suggests that he himself might be a son of Liverpool Pilot James MARTIN ie the MARTIN James (i) listed in Youde/Tebay as born 1774, licenced 1798, retired 1829, died 1830. 
Hugh's eldest son possibly being the MARTIN James (ii) licenced in 1842, died 1851?

Incidentally, this is believed to be the above-mentioned pilot William DAVIES (b1851 Birkenhead) with parents & siblings :-

1861 Census
60 Canning Street, Birkenhead
Humphrey DAVIES, 39, dock gateman, born CAE Caernarvon
Margaret, wife, 36, AGY Anglesey
William, son, 9, CHS Birkenhead
Ann Grace, daur, 6, CHS Birkenhead
Humphrey John, 1 month, CHS Birkenhead

Hope this has been of some help?

[glenburn]

Looks as though my hunch that all three sons of joiner Hugh MARTIN became Liverpool Pilots was correct:-

Marriage
21 July 1848
Liverpool St Peter
James MARTIN and Ann OWEN
Groom's father - Hugh MARTIN
Bride's father - Richard OWEN

1851 Census
4 Upper Hill Street, Toxteth Park
James MARTIN, 28, mariner pilot, born LAN Liverpool
Ann, wife, 33, pilot's wife, LAN Newton

Deaths
1851 DecemberQ
James MARTIN
Liverpool 20/224 or
West Derby 20/833

1861 Census
Hawkley Hall, Pemberton, Lancashire
Richard OWEN, 71, farmer of 160 acres, LAN Southworth
Ellen, wife, 66, LAN Winwick
Ann MARTIN, daur, W, 43, LAN Newton-in-Makerfield

Wonder why two of them (James and John Alfred) died so young?

[imd6662]

This latest exhange another clear reminder of the inter-connectedness o the pilotage family. Not at all surprising considering the likelihood that the the early shared ownership of boats is likely to both spring from and give rise to family ties.

It would be quite illuminating to recast the list of pilots in chronological order, and grouped by their service with relative boats, or even to create a family tree of the pilots.

My own cursory research suggests to me for exmaple that there must have been quite a pilot clan in and around Birkenhead. It already looks to me as if my own acnestors, thye Hughes, were lilely connected by marriage or neighbourhood (or both) to the Ledders. I also note that existence of a pub called the Pilot Boat on Magazine Brow - wonder if dave or Barrie know from pilot-lore if this has a long association with pilotage.

[BY]

Sorry, I have no personal information re The Pilot Boat Pub in Magazine Brow. It might be of interest that by Section 48 of the 1913 Pilotage Act an offence was created "If a licensed pilot, either within or without the district for which he is licensed, himself keeps or is interested in keeping by any agent, servant, or other person, any premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquors, or sells or is intersted in selling any intoxicating liquours, tobacco or tea" with liability to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.

As to areas of residence, it seems clear that until about 1875, most but by no means all pilots lived in Liverpool. Some are known to have lived in Hoylake, Wallasey and Birkenhead, long before 1875. In 1885 the Service was at its maximum strength, with 262 licensed pilots.  By the time of the Second World War, most but by no means all pilots lived in Wirral. By about 1970, still with 180 active pilots in the service, migration was taking place further afield, with several living in North Wales.

Hope this might help.

BY

[portlandlib]

Re Glenburns factfinding:  Many thanks.

Further to the interconnectedness and generations of pilots: Glenburn noted:
On 19 August 1877, in Liverpool St Silas, pilot William DAVIES married Anna Maria MARTIN, daughter of John Alfred MARTIN and Anna Maria WILLIAMS, who were married on 15 February 1853, also in Liverpool St Silas.
 
I just found Anna Maria Willliams father Robert listed as a Pilot and brother Edward as apprentice pilot in 1841.  So father - Pilot, brother-apprentice pilot, husband pilot, son inlaw pilot, grandson pilot. I hope fjaney checks back in.  It gets better by the day!
portlandlib