Offer:Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990

[Jillgw]

Hi,

I think I've seen the photos of Thorley Lester's grave on other websites. As a descendant of Thorley Lester, I would be very interested in seeing the grave for myself and would be grateful if you were able to describe whereabouts in St Hilary's Church grounds it is situated?

Many thanks

Jill

[glenburn]

Hi Jill

I presume your post is intended for me rather than Dave or BY?

The grave-finding directions I gave to the lady in Scotland who has posted my private photographs of Thorley's headstone on the worldwide web were as follows :-

'Go to the old tower, and with your back to Claremount Road look for a WEBSTER grave on the left-hand side. Follow this row to the left, heading towards HUGHES, and it's the fifth grave before the end.'

Can send you a map of the churchyard showing precise location if you'd care to let me have your e-mail address by pm (Rootsweb admin will delete if posted on this forum).

PS. I have no fewer than 10 Thorley LESTERs in my family tree, three of whom were licensed Liverpool Pilots - one born 1790 in Brimstage (Cheshire), one 1816 in Liverpool and another 1837, also in Liverpool.
The grave in Wallasey St Hilary churchyard described above is that of the first one ie born 1790 in Brimstage.

[Jillgw]

Hi,

Yes, I only joined the website yesterday, so although I thought i had posted a reply directly to your msg, I obviously have not got the hang of it yet

Not sure what you meant by emailing pm, but many thanks for the directions, I will visit the churchyard very soon and pay my respects.

Best wishes

Jill

[glenburn]

Hi again Jill

To send a pm (personal message) you simply click on the 'scroll' logo beneath a poster's name.

Incidentally, although Thorley LESTER (b1790 Brimstage) isn't directly related to me, his first cousin once removed Thomas LESTER (b1738 Arrowe) married my 4 x great-grand aunt Elizabeth SHERLOCK on 8 January 1760 in Upton-in-Overchurch St Mary.

So you and I are in fact distantly related via a long-ago 'sibling marriage'. 

[glenburn]

Hi, Gail,
Records show :-
                                         Born             Licensed               Retired              Died
Thomas Lester                                        1784                                             1813 at sea
Thorley Lester (i)                                    1809                    1858
Thorley Lester (ii)               1815             1834                    1861
Thorley Lester (iii)              1837             1861                    1898                  1900

Hi BY
In your book 'Beyond the Bar' you list Thorley (i) as DIED in 1858, a blank being shown in the 'Retired' column. But he isn't 'flagged' as having died in service?
The inference being that he retired in 1858 (aged 67) and died not long afterwards?

His gravestone in Wallasey St Hilary churchyard appears to bear the inscription 'He retired from the Pilot service of the Port of Liverpool in 1815 after 31 years Mastership'.
The year is patently incorrect, but I wondered if you or Dave could perhaps tell me precisely when Thorley (i) became a Master Pilot?

Best wishes
GB

[BY]

Hi, GB.

My apologies.

The devil lies in the detail, as it frequently does.

The First Edition of Beyond The Bar lists your ancestor Thorley Lester (i) as having died (but not as having retired) in 1858.

The Second Edition lists him as having retired in 1858, with his date of death unrecorded. Most clearly there is an error in my own efforts between the First and Second Edition (let alone anywhere else); and I can only repeat my apologies and my thanks for pointing it out. I can only confirm that it is a purely clerical error in any event; as the clearly excellent record of the Lester family had not previously been drawn to my attention, other than in this forum.

Both Editions (following Tebay's List of Pilots) show Thorley Lester (i) as having been first licensed in 1809 - which rules out 31 years of Mastership by 1815 by some distance. JS Rees shows a Thorley Lester as a Master pilot in 1824, holding 16 of the 64 shares in the pilot-cutter Friends Goodwill. This could only have been Thorley (i) if, as it appears, Thorley (ii) was born only in 1815 and was therefore only nine years of age in 1824.

Thomas Lester, however, is shown as having been licensed in 1784 and having died at sea in 1813 (after 29 years in service as a licensed pilot) - a record which is much nearer to 31 years of service combined with death in 1815. JS Rees shows Thomas Lester as having been a journeyman pilot in the cutter Fiends Goodwill in 1808.

The Friends Goodwill  (the second of her name, again Rees tells us) was sloop-rigged, built in 1789 and sold out of the Service in 1832.

Hope this might help, if only a little.

Very best,

BY

[BY]

Hi, GB,

A thought.  The fact that the gravestone in St Hilary's Church shows a Thorley Lester (etc) as having died in 1815 suggests that Thomas Lester (presumably the ancestor of them all) might well have been known as "Thorley"; and that the gravestone is his.  The Pilot Service is notorious for its many nicknames, some of which applied in blood-families, too.

It seems clear that the 1815 gravestone cannot apply to the man listed as Thorley (i), who was very clearly alive and kicking until 1858 (whether that was the year of his retirement or his death) - and was a Master Pilot in 1824, when Thorley (ii) was only nine years of age.

As to the difference between the 1815 gravestone and the recorded death at sea of Thomas ("Thorley?") Lester in 1813, again the old-enemy of typographical error might very easily account for it.

V best,

BY

[BY]

A further thought is that perhaps "Thomas" Lester's real name was Thorley Lester; and that Pilot Service records at the time simply refused to recognise that a a pilot could have such a posh name! This would at least explain why the family used "Thorley" on the 1815 gravestone. Stranger things have happened.

Best,

BY

[glenburn]

Hi BY

Many thanks for your helpful suggestions, but I don't believe there were any Thorley LESTERs earlier than the one born 1790 in Brimstage, he being the second son of farmer John LESTER and Martha THORLEY (hence his name) who were married on 18 November 1773 in Woodchurch Holy Cross.
Moreover, the St Hilary gravestone quite clearly gives the date of death for the pilot with '31 years Mastership' as 4th April 1858, aged 67.
When I first stumbled across the grave some four years ago my immediate assumption was that the year of retirement should read 1845, but I subsequently found that in the 1851 Census Thorley's occupation is given as master pilot, not master pilot retired.
As Jillgw (a direct descendant) has pointed out to me privately, Thorley's boat the IRLAM (after which he named his cottage in Liscard) was sold out of the pilotage service in 1852, so maybe it was not long after the 1851 census that (aged 62) he decided to hang up his boots?
The only answer, really, is for me to have a look at the Pilots' Character Book in the MMM Archives, which I need to do anyway (as soon as domestic circumstances permit) to try to identify if/how the Thomas LESTER and William LESTER - both licensed in 1784 - fit into my family tree.

Best Regards
GB