Author Topic: Offer:Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990  (Read 200525 times)

Offline vansager

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #153 on: Sunday 25 July 10 17:09 BST (UK) »
Hello Gordon,
That information was very helpful. Thank you.

I have some family history that you might be interested in about William W. regarding his life in the US. Written by his daughter. (typed)

but i tried and it is too bag . i will have to re-scan latter today and send it along.

Cheers,
VanSager

Offline glenburn

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #154 on: Sunday 25 July 10 17:51 BST (UK) »
Hello VanSager

Glad to hear that the information in my post was of some use.

I most certainly would be interested in any information you might have concerning William Worrall's life in the US - particularly anything written by a daughter of his of whom I was hitherto unaware.

Should it be of any interest to you I'm in touch with a step-grandaughter of William Worrall's in Salt Lake City who has the fondest memories of him?

Best regards
Gordon

Offline davecigar

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #155 on: Sunday 25 July 10 23:54 BST (UK) »
Hi VanSager,

The only info I have for HJE c1864 was posted here, in reply to Ryan, on 13/09/09.

Re GB's request:
Liverpool Pilots were self-employed from the day they received their first licence, the legal view being that the Owner, Master or Agent hired the services of a Pilot for a particular service to their vessel. Once that service was finished they made themselves available for their next duty, on a rotation list with other Pilots, who had also completed a service on other vessels. Therefore their services were retained by a succession of O/M/Agents and not the Pilotage Authority. Hence self-employment.

However, their compulsory earnings were collected by the Pilotage Authority as a percentage of pilotage dues, for the service completed, which was based on the draft and size of the vessel and the particular service, be it inward, outward or moving across the river from dock to dock etc. These earnings were distributed on a 'share' basis. A 1st class Pilot rec'd 1 share of earnings, a 2nd class Pilot 5/6 of a share and a 3rd class Pilot 2/3 share.

With the advent of steam driven vessels in the latter part of the 19th century, British Shipowners decided that they would prefer a more efficient service for their own ships by retaining the services of a named Pilot (or 2 /3). The Shipowner applied to the general body of Pilots for applicants for an Appropriated position with their Company. Upon selection each Pilot would be expected to pilot vessels of that Company where necessary, but if there weren't any of that Company's ships in the offing, they returned to the 'list' to take their 'turn' with other 'rota' pilots. Therefore they were never employed by a Shipping Company, only retained for their services. Therefore HJE would have only been retained by White Star Line and not employed by them.

Pilots, once licenced, almost never relinquished their licence, until retirement or death, so one can rule out Pilots leaving the confines of the Liverpool Pilot Service for employment elsewhere in the marine industry.

For this 'appropriated service' the Shipowner paid a retainer, which was minimal. In my father's case he was appropriated to Clan Line Steamers in 1953 for which he was paid the princely sum of £50pa. (Did Shipowners ever 'splash the cash'? I think not!) So one could argue that the Shipowner received this exclusive service 'on the cheap'. Basically that is correct, but from the Pilot's point of view, there was more to it than that. He consistently piloted superior vessels, became familiar with them and their crew and knew generally where and, more importantly, when he would be working. In addition there was a fee for manoeuvering vessels within the dock system, which was not part of compulsory pilotage earnings and was therefore collected by the individual. This could be considerable, as the Shipowner well knew, so he did get this additional, exclusive service for next to nothing.

Compulsory pilotage extended from the outer limits of the Pilotage Area to the lock. The lock being the entrance to the dock system, where a vessel would be raised (or lowered, if leaving) to the level of water within the system (or river). Pilotage from the lock to the berth was on a voluntary basis but in practice, vessels of reasonable size always retained the services of a Pilot.

The outer limits of the Liverpool Pilotage Area (20th century) were defined by an imaginary line being drawn from the north coast of Anglesey through Middle Mouse Island to the Calf of Man, along the east coast of the Isle of Man to Point of Air and thence to St Bees Head in Cumbria.

With reference to HJE's 'trip' to Southampton, I can only assume that he went at the behest of White Star Line, maybe to familiarise himself with the handling characteristics of the 'Titanic', in case she ever came to Liverpool. Because of the timescale prior to leaving Belfast, on her maiden voyage, a trip to Liverpool had been cancelled. I doubt he would have taken himself 'off share' just for the thrill of it and paying his own way as well. Pilot's were very pragmatic. Or another thought, maybe he had already travelled to Belfast to join the 'Titanic', for her impending call at Liverpool, when he would have been expected to commence his pilotage services as the vessel passed the outer limits, namely the Calf of Man. Maybe the call at Liverpool was cancelled after the vessel left Belfast so it was too late for him to disembark and so ended up in Southampton. It's all conjecture but the facts are somewhere! I favour the latter, but wonder why he travelled on to Cherbourg and Queenstown. Perhaps he was enjoying his enforced break from Liverpool. Stranger incidents have happened to Liverpool Pilots in my lifetime never mind the last 2 1/2 centuries!

Regards to All
Dave

Cockram/Williams - Poole/Wareham, Dorset
Evans - Corwen
Dodd - New Ferry/Malpas
Jones/Williams - Caernarfon/Anglesey
Bristowe - Bratton, Wiltshire
Wells - Bath, Somerset
Fishwick/Lewis - Liverpool
Nicholson/Tennant - Ecclefechan, Dumfrieshire

Offline vansager

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #156 on: Monday 26 July 10 01:27 BST (UK) »
Hello Dave,

All I can say in my west coast american-ease is WOW! What a grand vocation for so many but so few in the UK. I had no concept of how important the ocean going vessel (and their evolution) was to England until I checked out this website. How wonderful to have been a captain of one these behemoths as they sailed around the world. I live in the Bay area in Northern California, and I go to the ocean at least once a week by car, takes 45 minutes. I am near the water or going over the bay bridge many times each week, and have worked with longshoremen but never did it occur to me to what extent, and how important the ship has been to history. With regard to HJM's trip to Southhampton and on to Queenstown, is there any way to prove that he was an unofficial guest in the wheel house, snagging a ride??? Since he is not listed in any of the list for dis-embarking. I guess it would be like a pilot catching a ride on the airlines he works for back to the hub so to speak.?
Cheers,
this is fascinating.
vansager


Offline davecigar

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #157 on: Monday 26 July 10 10:56 BST (UK) »
Hi,
I would have thought 'zero chance' of finding HJE's attendance on the 'Titanic'.
He would not have been 'signed on' as a member of the crew nor recorded on any passenger list, only recorded in the ship's log book as embarking in Belfast and disembarking in Queenstown. As he didn't perform an act of pilotage to/from Liverpool there would not be any further reference to him.

So you will have to be satisfied that there is a distinct possibility that he did sail on the Titanic from Belfast to Queenstown, via Southampton and Cherbourg, if Evans family folklore is to be believed, but factual evidence is not available.

Family folklore, from my own research, can be extremely helpful, and factual. My father used to talk about a family connection with the Isle of Purbeck and Poole, Dorset, England but wasn't sure why? The only facts I had were from the 1841 census in Liverpool where I found my GGGrandfather, George Augustus Cockram c1800 living at Brunswick Place, Toxteth Park, Liverpool with his wife, 4 children and that he was a Master Mariner. After a great deal of time and effort I eventually tracked him down on a Merchant Navy Register at the National Archives, Kew, England which led me on to references to voyages he made from 1835 to 1840 and his name recorded as Master of 2 vessels, 'Rapid' and 'Blackaller' in Lloyds List. I now have the references to peruse crew agreements for both those vessels, but need to visit Kew again.
The important point being that the Register gave me his birthplace as Wareham, Dorset in the Isle of Purbeck. He married Sarah Williams in Poole in 1827. He arrived in Liverpool with his family between 1833 and 1835 as my GGrandfather was born in Poole in December 1832 and was christened in West Derby, Liverpool in November 1835 thereby confirming family folklore, of the Dorset connection.

Dave
Cockram/Williams - Poole/Wareham, Dorset
Evans - Corwen
Dodd - New Ferry/Malpas
Jones/Williams - Caernarfon/Anglesey
Bristowe - Bratton, Wiltshire
Wells - Bath, Somerset
Fishwick/Lewis - Liverpool
Nicholson/Tennant - Ecclefechan, Dumfrieshire

Offline BY

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #158 on: Monday 26 July 10 11:34 BST (UK) »
Hi, Vansager!

You mention the importance of the ocean going vessel to England. In Liverpool its importance has far surpassed anything else, as HJ Evans would no doubt have confirmed.

The following effort attempts to paint a picture of the scene off Point Lynas (i.e. at Liverpool's gatehouse for ships entering from the south and west) on a summer evening in the early 1960s.

TO SERVE THE WORLD ON A SUMMER EVENING

Come, evening sunlight, warmth of womb,
Flood into my sitting room.
Flood across the western sea
And stir a Pilot's memory.

Take me back to Lynas Point
(My trencher fill, my glass anoint)
And let me tell thee of the scene
On many a balmy summer e'en,
When liners, as their trade they plied
Came handsomely and on the tide
For Liverpool from lands enchanted;
And how men took it all for granted.

See you first the grand Cunard
With New York mail-flag at her yard:
The CPR next, from Quebec,
The icy-scheduled, foggy trek.
A Clan Line steamer from Ceylon,
An Ellerman from Lebanon,
A BP tanker from Iran,
And here's Blue Funnel, from Japan.
From Panama comes NZS,
Home from Auckland, wool-express,
And in her wake Shaw Savill who is,
Home from Sydney, via Suez.

An Anchor Liner from Bombay,
A Houlder boat from Uruguay,
Blue Star with Argentinian cargo,
And PSN from Santiago.
An Elder Dempster from Accra,
A Harrison from Zanzibar,
A Brocklebank with tea, Madras:
Intrepid Booth Line, from Manaus.
The sun it will be setting, soon -
Ah, here comes Bibby, from Rangoon.

Each takes her pilot from the Cutter,
A routine matter, bread and butter.
What panorama was afforded!
... All in the daily log recorded.

So, darling daughters at my knee,
It was a wondrous life,
D'you see?

As to roots in the Liverpool Pilot Service, I bend the knee to my good friend Davecigar and salute his long ancestry without question. My own father served as Pilot retained (as Dave explains) by Anchor Line and was a contemporary (and former school-chum at HMS Conway) with Dave's father. To grow up in a Pilot's household was a magical experience. To want to do anything other than become a Pilot was unthinkable.


Best wishes

BY
 
 

Offline glenburn

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #159 on: Tuesday 27 July 10 10:01 BST (UK) »
Hello VanSager

Amongst the many photographs in an album kept by my schoolmistress maiden grand-aunt Margaret EVANS (1867-1933) are two captioned 'Drying raisins in California', which I can only assume would have been sent to her by William Worrall EVANS - her 2nd cousin once removed.
Can send as attachments if you'd care to let me have your e-mail address in a personal message? (Click on my user-name 'glenburn' to do this).

Best regards
Gordon

Offline BY

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #160 on: Tuesday 27 July 10 17:33 BST (UK) »
The Scene in the Mersey for most of the Twentieth Century until about 1975 looked something like this, at Tide Time.

TIDE TIME.

Small Dutch Schuyt and a Spanish fruit-ship,
British coastal tanker and a Baltic jeep,
One fine morning, waiting for the flood-tide,
Lying at the anchorage in Garston Deep. 

City-boat, Clan-boat, NYK Japan boat,
Lying all together in a line within the Sloyne,
One fine morning, waiting for the flood-tide,
Waiting for the half-tide when the tug-boats join.

Birkenhead levels and the Mersey River revels:
All begins to happen in the daily jamboree.
Out slides Bibby Line, Harrison and Anchor Line,
Following Blue Funnel as they clear away for sea.

Downstream, brownstream, in the mighty Townstream,
A sugar-boat is swinging for the berth at Tate & Lyle:
Behind her (remind her), here comes the CPR boat,
Racing for the Landing Stage, direct from Belle Isle.

Further down at Bootle, in and out they tootle,
From Panama Canal and the entire Pacific Rim.
Could any sight be finer than a deeply-laden liner,
Trading to the tropics in a profitable trim?

Inward ships are hailing, outward ships are sailing:
A fleet within close quarters needs precision in its flow.
Upstream, inward bound, here comes more for Eastham,
Straight from Mississippi and the Gulf of Mexico.

All the outward traffic makes a moving picture graphic,
Racing down the Channel working engines up to pace.
Thirty different funnels over sixty different gunwhales:
Never could a sailor see a more exciting race!

Thundering, lumbering, lumbering and wondering,
The supertank for Tranmere will simply carry on.
Though steerable, unstoppable, her anchors quite undroppable,
The key to her command is in the timing of her run.

Tide-time's over, silent mover,
Power insurmountable now quickly ebbs away.
What on Earth is time apart from mankind's measure?
Tide-time happens, twice each day.

BY

Offline glenburn

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Re: Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990
« Reply #161 on: Tuesday 27 July 10 21:39 BST (UK) »
Hi BY

Enjoyed the prose (all your own work?) which took me back many years to my days with H M Customs & Excise on Liverpool Docks (1956-1972) - we skulking behind pillars on the quayside whilst you guys obligingly guided 'prey' into our waiting web.  :-)

Recognised all of the names you mentioned, but there were of course many, many more including Port Line, Ben Line, Strick Line, Lamport & Holt, MacAndrews, Safmarine, Palm Line, Union Castle, Lykes Line, United States Line, Head Line, Henderson, Larrinaga SS, P & O, Royal Mail, British India, Furness, Booker Line, Federal SS, Court Line, Donaldson, Holland-America (-dyk boats), Bank Line, Guinea Gulf Line (John Holt), Moss Hutchison, India SS, Nigerian National & Scindia (Jala-boats).
Mind-boggling to think just how many there were, isn't it, compared with the mere handful about nowadays ?

Head Line (Ulster SS Co) had a reputation for docking their vessels (invariably from the North American/Canadian Lakes) in the most attrocious weather conditions, when all others remained at anchor to await the next tide, and I can remember several occasions when their ships sustained damage in the process. Have always wondered whether the Pilot was allowed any say in this, or would his considered opinion have simply been over-ruled by the ship's owners or master?

Regards
Gordon