Offer:Look-up Liverpool (Mersey) Pilots 1734/1990

[bud the hiker]

Hi Dave and all...

On Sunday May 4, 1856 at about 3 AM, a steamboat tug towed the three-mast sailing ship THORNTON out of the Mersey River into the Irish Sea. The pilot and tug returned about 8:30 AM.

I'm researching the voyage and subsequent adventures of the THORNTON passengers - but I live in the States, so a quick trip to the Liverpool history source books is a tad difficult.

I'm running into a blank wall from here, so I find I must appeal to my British cousins.

Any help possible with the following questions would be most appreciated:

1 - any resources possible on which pilot and tug may have been involved given the information provided?
2 - any source for etchings/photographs of what a "steamboat" tug might have looked like in 1856?
3 - On May 3rd 1856, the journalists note that they were, "Moved out of Bramly Moor Docks and anchored in the River" while they awaited government and physician inspection.  Where might such an anchorage have been? Out near the fort? alongside the docks? Any thoughts?
and finally -
4 - any sources on information about the inspection process? Location of the government buildings from which such inspectors might have been dispatched?

Sorry for the long post and multitude of questions - but I'm severely limited with knowing where else to go.

Regards -
Kevin 

[BY]

Hi, Bud,

Sounds as though you might be writing an historical novel!

It seems probable that the ship would have anchored in the Mersey approximately opposite to Bramley Moore dock - i.e. in the vicinity of Egremont.
This would seem to be a natural move, particularly if required to wait for further official inspections. It would be the most convenient place; and there would be no point in going any further.

Sorry I can't help as to any name for tug or pilot.

It also seems probable that in 1856 the tug would have been a paddler. Somebody else might  know the year when the first propeller-driven tug-boat was introduced.

Good luck!

BY

[celia]

Kevin 
Dave's Topic is  all about Liverpool Pilot boats and their masters and crew.Tug Boats are different from Pilots boats,Dave will no dought point you in the right direction which will help with your research.

Celia

[bud the hiker]

Yep - trolling through the prior posts in this section, I'd caught that there was a marked difference between the tug captains and the master pilots, but, as I noted, I'm kind of at a loss for where to go next - and hopefully ya'll won't say to Liverpool!
(wait - that came off wrong. It's not that I wouldn't LIKE to come to Liverpool = oh, drats! nevermind).

Would the tug have cast the THORNTON off on its own - or was there a pilot on board as well that returned with the tug?  Would that be recorded anywhere?

And, what's the typical course out of the Mersey's mouth for the States?  There was a Northeast wind, so I presume they headed west to pass just north of the Isle of Anglesey - along the Liverpool to Dublin lane until they passed the Isle, no?

Any thoughts?

[celia]

Would the tug have cast the THORNTON off on its own - or was there a pilot on board as well that returned with the tug?  Would that be recorded anywhere?

I cant really go of topic by talking about tug boats but the tug boat had to have a pilot to steer the tug.As do all vessels,Tugs are attatched to vessel's by ropes/ and then guided out of channels till they get to the open sea.When the attached line is de-tached from the vessel.The pilot of the ship/vessel still has to steer the ship.I  see this happening a lot when  the bridge goes up the tug  appears first then eventually the cargo ship all i know about the thornton is that it carried passengers back and forth Liverpool to America. It looks like you query might go for some time.Would it be a good idea to start your own topic on the occupation interest board

Celia    P.S. I had a look through shipping list departures/arrivals Liverpool to America  in the 19th century newspapers The Thornton is mentioned didn't find much else though if i do I will P.M you.

[celia]

Bud just found this website with some images of a steamboat tug

http://uk.ask.com/pictures?q=Steam+Tugs&page=1&o=0&l=dir&pstart=0&qsrc=24

Celia

[BY]

Some clarification of the various roles of shipmaster, pilot and tug-boat might help here.

By the laws of pilotage:- ' "pilot" means a person not belonging to a ship who has the conduct thereof and "pilotage" shall be construed accordingly.'

By the laws of towage:- ' the tug is the servant of the tow.'

Consequently the tug-boat takes its orders/directions/instructions from the person who has the conduct of the ship (i.e. from the pilot if the ship is under pilotage and from the shipmaster if the ship is not under pilotage).

It is a rare event for there to be a pilot on board a tug-boat. Tug-boat masters themselves are (in general terms) highly experienced in the areas in which they operate.

In well-run ships, the steering is done by a helmsman (sometimes called a quartermaster) who takes his orders directly from the person who "has the conduct" of the ship (i.e. either the pilot or the shipmaster - as the case may be - or alternatively, when the ship is in the open sea, from the officer of the watch.)

Best wishes,

BY

[RickyC]

Hi Dave,

Joseph Bennett.
Can you please confirm that the Cox of the Hoylake Lifeboat
(1809 to 1822) was previously a Liverpool Pilot up to 1809 ?
If so - did he have a son, also called Joseph Bennett ?

RickyC

[davecigar]

Hi Ricky,
The records show that Joseph Bennett was licenced in 1786 and left the Pilot Service in 1808 to become keeper of Hoylake Lighthouse. At the time of his departure he was a Master of the pilot cutter he was serving on.
The 2nd Joseph Bennett was licenced in 1823. It doesn't show whether he is the son of the former.
In 1854 he was attached to No 4 pilot cutter 'Auspicious' which was built in 1849 by Thos. Royden of Liverpool. She was 60'5" x 14'7" x 9'2" at 49.5grt.
He was the oldest journeyman pilot on board (out of 11) at 53 years of age, c1801.
He 'died in service' (DIS) in 1857, aged 56.
As previously indicated it should be possible to find his pilotage career record from the Pilot's Character Book at the MMM, Albert Dock, Liverpool, which may give a reason for his DIS.
Regards
Dave