goldsmith hughes johnson family in kent probable travellers

[nelwild]

I have been researching my family tree for some time,and have long suspected that i might have some Romany or jewish ancestors scattered about it,and have just found some that sound like gypsy travellers.The lady in my tree is Kezia Goldsmith born Sheerness,Kent in 1853,her mother is Sarah Goldsmith born Ashford,Kent c1828,shes a clothes dealer on 1861 census,and a lodging house keeper on 1871(is that a gypsy occupation?).Kezia has several siblings,Moses b1855 sheerness,Diana b1851,Hoo,Kent, Aaron b1858,Sittingbourne,Kent and Thomas b1849 Faversham,Kent.I found a site that gives gypsy,traveller and itinerant records in kent and both Moses and Kezia appear on it.On the 1881 census Thomas is living in a caravan in Sittingbourne with Eliza Roberts b1851 Stockbury,Kent,servant and caravan sleeper or keeper,and her daughter Sarah b1879 Sittingbourne.Moses marries Deborah Johnson b c1860 Hastings,Sussex,wardrobe purchaser,with them on 1891-1901census are nephews Samuel,Aaron and George.The only Deborah on census that might fit is 1871 Deborah Johnson b1858,birthplace unknown,pauper inmate,Faversham Union Workhouse,with Thomas Johnson b1885 Woodchurch,Kent,and Elizabeth Johnson b1826 Wendover,Bucks.Aaron marries Sarah Annie Hughes b1860 Rochester,Kent in Canterbury in 1879,her father is Samuel Hughes b 1827,Cripplegate,East London occ hawker/general dealer/picture framer and dealer in pictures.His wife is Dinah unknown b1833 brighton and there other children are annie b 1860 rochester,samuel b1866 fav,phoebe b 1869 chatham.On 1881 census they are living in a travelling van in canal fields,gravesend.On 1901 census Samuel appears top be in Maidstone Prison,this is the only other entry i can find for him.If anyone knows anything about these families,however small, i would be very grateful,even if just to confirm that they were definatly travellers.many thanks.

[cathayb]

hullo my dear.well it definately sounds like they are gypsies/travellers.contrary to opinion gypsies will do any job where they can make a bit of money so dont worry too much about the occupations.you do find the roberts/hughes/johnson/names amonst travellers.i dont know about goldsmith but golding can be a travellers name and they often changed their names anyway!!!do you find they move about kent quite abit?if you find coopers,whites,penfolds,other hughes/johnson/parker/ayres/birch amongst them then you are really onto something.when you look at the cencus look at the other people stopping with them and on the forward and back page to the one you are on.you will often get clues from that.hope you find you can confirm either way.lokk forward to hearing what happens or turns up.cathayb

[bearkat]

welcome to Rootschat,

It certainly looks as if your family were travellers.  It might be worth posting a link to this thread on the Kent board.  I'm sure people there may be able to help you.

[nelwild]

To Cathayb and Bearcat,many thanks for the replies.Im sorry i havent replied sooner but i had trouble logging on the site;kept saying page couldnt be displayed.Ive had a look at some of the neighbours on the census,but,apart from a few exceptions,they havent revealed much.Most of them appear pretty settled and sedentary.If it hadnt been for the fact that a couple of them are down as being in travelling vans on the 1880 census,and some of the occupations,i probably wouldnt have realised that they might be travellers.A few things are quite intresting though.On the 1861 when Sarahs at 106 high st,sheerness,she has staying with her a Joseph Guess,b1811,rye,sussex and Diane Guess b1818 hythe,kent.Joseph is a hawker and both are described as visitors.Next door is old george yard,the residents of which are Adam Roberts b1853,hythe,kent,wife Prisilla,birthplace unknown,daughters diana,priscilla,sara a and julia,all born different locations in kent,mary ann white,charwoman b linsted and three kids,John ? and Phoebe? hawkers,and Isaac Easter,Eliza and kids mary and frank hunt.On 1871 Sarah is running a lodging house in sittingbourne,with 10 residents besides her kids.On the 1881 she has 32 residents.The names of the families stopping in caravans with her son thomas on 1881 are Stone,Harris,Rossiter,Baker and Beaney.There occupations are hawkers of brushes,general dealers,brickfield carters and labourers.Intrestingly on the 1881 Aaron Goldsmith and wife are at 10banks yard,sittingbourne and there immediate neighbour is Eliza Shilling,b1819,Wendover,Bucks and Thomas Johnson,Elizas son b 1865 Woodchurch,gen.lab.These are clearly the same people who were in faversham workhouse on the 1871 with deborah johnson,the lady who went on to marry moses goldsmith.Also,on the Gypsy,Traveller and Itinerant Kent Baptism records,it would appear that Sarahs father is Moses Goldsmith.I cant understand how its worded,but this is what it says;Moses Goldsmith b12 sept 1855 Sheerness,underneath is written Moses,Sarah then Kezia Elizabeth Goldsmith b30august 1853 sheerness,underneath is written Moses,Sarah.Also on same list is Hughes Diane Lydia,Henry,Emily b26 july 1898 HT milton,gravesend and Hughes ,Samuel Henry,Samuel Thomas,Jane Sarah b18 dec 1914 HT milton,gravesend.Like i said before,ive always felt there might be Romany and Jewish ancesters in my family,but this is the most compelling evidence ive found to date.Having said that,my dads dads side of the family,where i discovered these is very big and will probably take me a lifetime to research.Some other names i have in my tree that ive seen associated with travellers ayres,wells,beaney,chambers,hunt ,epps,smith,wood/s stanley,buckley,harris,herne as well as many others i cant recall.Occupations include tinman/smith blacksmith,farrier,costermonger,ostler,horsekeeper,dealer,ag.lab,gen.lab,chimney sweep,brickfield labourer/carter,brickmoulder,coke/lime burner,coal labourer,cement labourer,gunpowder mill workers plus a lot in the workhouses.All this is around the faversham/ospringe/boughton/milton/sittingbourne/ashford area of kent but some seem to have associations further afield and ive mostly only gone back to 1841 census.Sorry ive waffled on,but this is really fascinating to me.If you can help,or anyone reading can,id be really grateful.All the best.             

[cathayb]

flippen hech.romanies or what.what more evidence do you need?you are 100%into romany family.ayres,beaneys,wells,hunts,smiths,woods,stanley,roberts,guess all these are in my family line and i am 100%rom with my husband living on a romany site in somerset.well thats not strickley tru!i am infact jewish but been with the roms for 36 years now.we are not that different from each other either i can tell you,i just noticed johnsons and whites aswell!i expect we might connect somewhere along the line.got any birches or coopers or hughes or taylors in your line by anychance.what about penfolds,orchards i could go on and on but you seem to have a fair few anyway.mine i must admit are mainly from the west country and hampshire and london,surry etc,but i do have a fair few in kent.i will pm you in a minute with my email address and we will see if we can connect in anyway.i think you also ought to post on http:/gypsiespassingthrough.wetpaint.com    and romanygenes blank page   you will find your family names and help from other romany researchers on both those sites.welcome to the family   cathayb

[nelwild]

Cathayb,thanks for the latest reply,youll probably think im a bit stupid,but how do i get your email address;im just getting used to this site and how it works,not sure what PM is.The names that i mentioned are all in my tree on my paternal grandfathers side,but there doesnt appear to be a direct link between any of them,they are just names ive added as ive expanded the tree out to just over a 1000 people,some are quite distant and all seem fairly settled,although i thought them worth mentioning as they are known traveller names.The only ones ive found so far that definatly appear to be are Kezia Goldsmith and co.Having said that,and despite the fact that most of the relatives ive found so far seem settled,there is so much about my tree that doesnt quite add up.Perhaps if i tell you a bit about the geography and history of the town where i grew up,that might be a good place to start.Its called Faversham,and is a medieval market town about 10 miles west of Canterbury in Kent.Its always had strong links with Romanies and travellers over the centuries because of the market,and also,with it being the home of britains oldest brewery,Shepherd Neame,its surrounded by hopfields.And where theres hops,theres travellers.Many gypsy families settled in the town,and married in with locals.If you visit Faversham Cemetry,youll find dozens of beautifully tended graves inscribed with well known traveller names.It never occured to me that i might be connected until i started doing my tree,and even now i cant explain exactly why i feel it,ive just always had a sense that theres something slightly different to that side of the family,something i cant put my finger on,but like an old-fashionedness,or an invisible strand that stretches way back before modern day materialism to something much more fundemental.Does that sound a bit crazy?Like i said,id always put it down to a possible Jewish connection,what with my surname being a well known Jewish one.Ive had Jewish friends,including a Rabbi tell me i look Jewish,my dad even more so.The one thing i dont share with many Jewish people is financial prosperity;im as poor as a church mouse financially,but richly blessed in other ways.This lack of money is something i share with most of my ancestors.Other things about this side of the family that make me wonder is a tendency for same families to intermarry,aunts and uncles looking after siblings of other family members,large numbers of children,large numbers in the workhouse,lack of baptism,marriage,death cert and census entries in some cases,names and occupations.Ive gone on a bit again,but theirs so much i want to say.Im going off to look at my tree now to find a few people,will post back with them.One i can remember is my ggg uncle Peter Coppins,sometimes Cappen or Cappings,1851 and 1861 census,brickfield labourer,1871,costermonger with one son as his assistant,1881,brickfield labourer,1891,Canterbury Prison,he and his wife Ann had 22 children,although its thought some may have been illigitimate g children,a large number even for then.He and Ann both died at the same time in 1899.Something else ive remembered is when i started researching and was trawling rather than recording,i found a much closer connection to Kezia Goldsmiths husband Isaac Stone,but cant remember how i got there.Im pretty sure it was through my ggguncle Richard Jacob wife Louisa Fisher,a charwoman from Milton in Kent.Incidentally,on1891,their son Frederick was in Kent County Lunatic Asylum,age 16,which is very sad,though it may not have been insanity as apparently you could go there for all manner of things in those days.Thanks for taking the time and ill post again soon.     

[cathayb]

the pm should come to you on a rootschat link.press it like you do to come back here when i post a message on here.when the page comes up it will say your name and message in the right hand corner.press on the message and it should come up for you too read.i will put another pm (personel message on incase you have lost the last link.if your still having trouble go to http://Http://gypsiespassingthrough.wetpaint.com in your web browser.i am on there in a big way and i can post my emails address on there so you will find me but you will need to join the site but its very good and free.i will write on here again later.your fisher lady may be related to me!!what i need are dates and names to start researching for your roms.cathayb

[deb usa]

Aaron marries Sarah Annie Hughes b1860 Rochester,Kent in Canterbury in 1879,her father is Samuel Hughes b 1827,Cripplegate,East London occ hawker/general dealer/picture framer and dealer in pictures.His wife is Dinah unknown b1833 brighton and there other children are annie b 1860 rochester,samuel b1866 fav,phoebe b 1869 chatham.

Hi all

I wonder if this could be Samuel's marriage;

Samuel thomas Hughes = Diana Hughes
Dec 1859 Sheppey Kent
2a 1129

of course only one of their children's birth certs could confirm this.

Would be nice to find a Penfold connection 

deb

[cathayb]

nielson have you got my personel messages to you yet?we will still post on here as debs usa has an intereset here as i have some penfolds in kent i would like to let you know about debs.i am looking for a link to the devon ones with them.i have just broke my mouse and need to go find another.using the laptop for this and i hate it.back soon.cathayb.nielson please email me at home email that i have given you in pms.i have sent you three.cathayb