Author Topic: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican  (Read 61364 times)

Offline SlovenianCrowther

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #117 on: Wednesday 18 April 12 09:07 BST (UK) »
Barnet Berman(later Crowther) was born in Russia !(i will put the link bellow).

Here is the link,

http://www.british-jewry.org.uk/leedsjewry/search.php?mylastname=CROWTHER&lnqualify=equals&mybool=AND

Best regards to all,
Alex

Offline Sandymc47

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #118 on: Wednesday 18 April 12 11:50 BST (UK) »
Hi again,

Having done ancestry in and around Leeds for many years now I would
comment on the name Crowther.
It was a surname of many people and families in the area of Leeds where
the Bermans lived.  They had a lodger called Crowther so adopted his name.
It was not unusual for Jewish families to adopt a local popular name where
they lived.  This enabled the family to live in that area without the stigma
of being called names or at least giving their children a start in a very
close knit community as they had in the 1880's in Leeds. It was a way of
blending in with the locals without causing any trouble. With a strong accent
the name Berman could have sounded very different to uneducated people.

regards Sandymc

p.s. Cant believe this post is still ongoing, laugh, its been on for ages. Well done.
Midgley, Fowler, Chadwick, Kilvington, Routledge, Hewitt, Stevenson, Ward, Waite, Binks , Buck, Pearson,  Stanley, Firth, Child, Hobson, Rogers, all Leeds and Yorkshire for centuaries except the Routledges from Wigton, Cumbria and Middlesbrough. Related to McAllisters of Wilsontown

Offline GLM66

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #119 on: Wednesday 18 April 12 19:41 BST (UK) »
Hi Alex,

I had already seen the link that you have included, all that site does is repeat the transcription as it is, it does not try to make sense of it! The Census does make mistakes, and I can see how there can be more than one way to interpret this entry (given the lack of other proofs), but I think we should avoid making rash assumptions with regards to the Berman family adopting the name Crowther, I can see no evidence for this, if they did why do we not see some evidence in the 1901 and 1911 Census.

Best regards

Gary

Offline PaulSlo

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #120 on: Monday 21 January 13 01:10 GMT (UK) »
Dear All,
             Small genetic updates. It seems that about 2000 years ago our ancestors were in the Karelia area - split between Finland and Russia. I hope for more info on this.
             I have 3% Neanderthal, and 2.3% Denisovan genetic material - which means that all the Crowther males on this thread do too ! The 3% Neanderthal  is frequent in Europeans. The Denisovans - in case you didn't khow - are another branch of the hominid family whose existence was discovered in 2010. They lived in east Asia (some New Guineans and Melanesians have up to 6% Denisovan in them). Our ancestor(s) interbred with them as they moved through China and Mongolia into Siberia. (The Denisovan bone fragment from which their dna was recognized, was found in the Denisova cave in Siberia.)
             I hope to be able to do something about restoring the collapsed Crowther gravestone in Beckett Street cemetery, soon. Will keep you all informed.
             Best wishes,
             Paul


Offline benny9

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #121 on: Tuesday 22 January 13 20:37 GMT (UK) »
It's good to here from you Paul and very interesting stuff. Hope the new year find you and all the rest of the Crowther clan in good health.
Johnson, Crowther, Sykes showman and travellers 1800's onward of Leeds and surrounding area. Also Bunting, Bosomworth and Palliser

Offline PaulSlo

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #122 on: Saturday 26 January 13 01:32 GMT (UK) »
The Mackenzie story.
             After a wretchedly long deferral, I shall now add some material researched by Gary concerning the origins of our Great Grandma (or whatever) Margaret Jane Mackenzie. It will come in two parts. First....
             Margaret's Grandad was Hector Mackenzie who was born in 1772 in the Scottish highlands. The next entry will give his story in detail. Suffice it say now he was a professional soldier who fought in the Napoleonic wars.He was discharged from the army in 1816, and became a labourer, and then a porter.
            On the 4th February 1830 in Aberdeen - at the age of 58! - he married Helen Monro, who was born in Tarbet, Rosshire. They had their first child  John on 8th July 1833. Hector eventually received an army pension, and died in Aberdeen, being buried on July 5th 1847.
             John Mackenzie became a bootmaker. He married Euphemia Reid - daughter of James Reid (a miner) at Dalkeith in Midlothian on 22nd October 1853. In the 1861 census, John, Euphemia, and their children Helen(6), Grace (4), Jemima (1), and Grandma Helen were living at 9 Charles Court in Aberdeen. Grandma Helen died on May 21st in the same year at the age of 58.
             During the late 1860's the family moved to the Biker area of Newcastle where a son called John was born. In the 1871 census Euphemia and the children (minus Grace, who must have died) were living at 62 Smithies Street in Leeds. Obviously there were family 'issues' insofar as the father John was not living with them. It gets worse !(What follows next may have been posted before, but I'll repeat it now).
             In the 1881 census, Euphemia (aka 'Jane Reed') was in Wakefield prison. She was convicted of stealing a pair of boots, and sentenced to 3 months 'hard labour' on March 31st at Dewsbury, and was released on June 22nd. This seems not to have been her first conviction. Her prison record describes her as 5'1", with brown hair, with a scar on her forehead and right arm, and able to read. During this time, Margaret was living at Stocksbank, Mirfield, caring for her siblings Euphemia and John. There was also a girl lodging with them.
            Euphemia died on August 6th 1885 after falling out of a bedroom window at 10 Stainburn Square 'whilst in a state of intoxication' (according to the death certificate).Clearly The Old House at Home may have much to answer for...
            John Mackenzie senior died on 23rd May 1899, at 31 East Street. Interestingly, the death was registered by Margaret, who was with him at the time of death.
            So what do we make of this? At the time of his death John had another family, but Margaret still cared enough to be there. Did he leave because of Euphemia's obviously 'wayward' nature or what? But whatever the case, he stayed in the same area as his estranged family. A mystery....
            Gary's researching of all this has been truly amazing ! We owe him a big vote of thanks. As I said earlier, in the next post I'll enter the story of Hector Mackenzie. Watch this space !
            But I'll end with a strange little note. In previous posts I've mentioned our Finnish/Siberian ancestry - which extends further into Mongolia and China. As a child I was always obsessed by northern Russia and Mongolia - I even had areas where I played in Belle Isle which I designated by names like Noyava Zemlya (which is an island in arctic Russia) and inner and outer Mongolia. This is a curious kind of genetic echo. But equally odd is that I have been interviewed (unsuccessfully) twice for jobs in Aberdeen, and once for a job in Dalkeith - places where the Mackenzies and Reids did live and marry. Weird I calls it !

Offline benny9

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #123 on: Saturday 26 January 13 18:37 GMT (UK) »
What a brilliant story Gary has unearthed. Sounds like Stainburn sq. was a bit of a rum place to say the least, illeagal drinking, death what next.

Some of my great grandparents on my mums side came from Aberdeenshire. They came to Leeds to run or manage a paper mill.
Johnson, Crowther, Sykes showman and travellers 1800's onward of Leeds and surrounding area. Also Bunting, Bosomworth and Palliser

Offline GLM66

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #124 on: Wednesday 30 January 13 12:49 GMT (UK) »
Hi Paul, nice to hear from you once again, I think over the last few years we have all contributed to the unfolding of the Crowther story, its good to get other peoples different takes on our own thoughts as to how we piece together the info that we have uncovered to give us a clearer picture of events.

I was of the opinion that John was missing from the 1871 Census because he was also in Prison! however I have no proof that that was the case, but given the fact that he is also absent from the 1881 and  1891 Census perhaps he had become separated from his wife.
I was unable to find John in the 1881 & 1891 Census years, has anyone actually found his entry for those years ?

John MacKenzie died at the home of Hannah Godfrey, she was  the Daughter of George Crowther (see the Will) This is the Hannah Gallagher (First marriage) and Godfrey (second Marriage). 
She was still living at 31 East Street in the 1901 Census.
When you refer to Johns other family,  have you found some new info ?


Regards and happy new Year to everyone, Gary.

Offline PaulSlo

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Re: Crowthers, Leeds, Stainburn sq, Publican
« Reply #125 on: Saturday 09 February 13 01:08 GMT (UK) »
I forgot where I found the John info. It may be wrong.
         Anyway, Hector Mackenzie. Hector is a common Mackenzie clan name. His discharge paper says he was born at Lochbroom in Rosshire. Lochbroom is a former Parish on the seawater Loch Broom - on the opposite side from Ullapool. However, his paper also mentions the town of Tain - which is nowhere near Loch Broom. However, it is near Urray - a settlement near the Black Isle - a peninsula in the Moray Firth which is the ancestral home of the Mackenzie clan. A hector was born to Donald and Margaret mackenzie on 4th April 1772 - and he is the only one who fits our Hector. Two Donald Mackenzies were born in the same parish in 1739 - so one of them  was probably Hector's dad.
         In December 1794, Hector joined the 133rd Foot - a recruiting regiment. He was then assigned to the 42nd Highland Regiment - the famous 'Black Watch'. This is odd, as there was already a mackenzie regiment in the army - the Seaforth Highlanders, who actually wore the mackenzie tartan. The discharge paper shows he served 283 days in the West Indies, which means he saw action against the french at St' Lucia and St. Vincent.
        I'm now just repeating the stuff Gary's amazing research has turned up... Suffice it to say, hector was invalided out of the army in 1816, after receiving a would in the side - probably at the Battle of Toulouse in 1814. His papers describe him as 5'7", with fair hair and fair complexion, and blue eyes.
       After leaving the army, he ended up working as a porter in Aberdeen, where he married Helen Monro in 1833, at the age of 58. She was the daughter of James Monro - 'coffee merchant's labourer'. he eventually drew his army pension, and died of 'infirmity' at Aberdeen in 1847. I will try to attach the copy of his discharge paper, and the regimental record for the Black Watch during Hector's time in it. It's likely that Hector was at all the places listed. Congratualtions to Gary for uncovering this stuff. One aside - from me - is that in the 1745 Jacobite rebellion, the Mackenzie clan had divided loyalty. The rebel faction actually laid waste to Monro clan territories, and burned Foulis castle