Author Topic: The mother of all brick walls!  (Read 12051 times)

Offline Timbottawa

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The mother of all brick walls!
« on: Tuesday 29 July 08 07:05 BST (UK) »
I would welcome any and all ideas on how to proceed with my equivalent of the Berlin Wall (OK, it wasn't strictly a brick wall, but you know what I mean!).

My great grandfather's name was (supposedly) Henry Thomas BUTLER (or possibly Henry John Butler).  I have found him on the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censii.  He died in 1906.  In the three censii on which he appears the ages he gives corespond to birth years of approximately 1842-3, 1844-5, and 1845-6.  His death certificate implies a birth year of approximately 1845-6.  At least he was consistent in his (supposed) place of birth: Chelsea, London (or sometimes Middlesex).

He should appear in the 1851, 1861, and 1871 censii, but I am unable to locate him on any of these.

One problem is that in about 1870 or 71 he married Margaret McHale (sometimes MacHale or McHall or Machall).  But there is no marriage certificate.  Without this I do not know his parents' names, which makes it virtually impossible to locate him in the 1851 and 1861 censii.

The 1871 census is interesting.  Margaret has left her parent's pub, the Duke of Ormond, in Princes St. Westminster and appears in the census living alone on census night in a boarding house at 10 Gloucester St., Finsbury.  Intriguingly, she records herself as Margaret Butler, married. It's hugely circumstantial, I know, but why would she record her name as Butler and her marital status as married if she had recently started living in sin with her boyfriend in an area where they were not known, and where I suspect many such examples existed.  This makes me think that they really were married, but where is the certificate?  Margaret was almost certainly Catholic, Henry almost certainly not - I don't know if this would be significant.

But where was Henry in 1871?  As an actor, he could have been anywhere in the country, though most likely somewhere in the southeast.  But I've researched all Henry Butlers, and tried obvious mis-transcriptions like Buller and Butter, with no success!

I have downloaded all births of Henry Butler in the 1842-46 period, and even ordered certificates of the most likely candidates based on place of birth.  The trouble is, without knowing his parents' names, I cannot know if any birth certificate is the right one or not.  As Henry & Margaret's second son, born 1874, was named Hubert, after Margaret's father (their first was Henry), I was hoping that I might come across a birth certificate for Henry in which the parents' names were Edith (their oldest daughter's name) or Reginald (their third son), but no luck!

Margaret McHale is an unusual name, of course.  Interestingly, there is a marriage of a Margaret McKale in Chelsea (!) in the 4th Q of 1867.  Perhaps a year or two too early, but maybe not - she would have been 19 at the time.  The groom's name is George Turney.  Could Henry have been using an assumed name, for some reason?  Or is Henry Butler an assumed (stage) name and George Turney his real name?  Or is this all just a coincidence? Mysteries!  None of the George Turneys in the 1871 census are married to a Margaret (or Maggie or Peggy).

This has stymied me for 7 years so far.  Any thoughts most welcome!

Thanks
Tim
Boyle, Butler, Yarborough, Baldwin, Midwood, McHale, Carter, Noble, Kay, Raper, Greenwood, Swift

Offline Jean McGurn

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 07:34 BST (UK) »
If he was an actor would Butler be his real name?

Seem to remember reading somewhere that the actor Michael Caine when he was knighted was knighted under his real name   (Micklewaite?)
Not sure how he puts his name on census records.

Jean

 
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Offline DebbieG

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 07:43 BST (UK) »
Tim - I can't see an actor in the census who fits thoses details - did he change occupation and become an artist?
or am I looking at the wrong man?

DebbieG
Pay(n)ton, Payton, Pe(a)rton all Oxfordshire and Berkshire - particularly Abingdon

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Timbottawa

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 08:33 BST (UK) »
Hi Debbie,

Which census are to trying to find him in?  He variously recorded himself as actor, artist, comedian, etc.  A second cousin still has a coplue of paintings by him.

In 1881 he was in Hull, and an "artist pictures".  In 1891he was in Castleford and an "actor"; in 1901 he was in Scarborough, and an "artist".

Jean ... no, I have no way of knowing if Butler was his real name or a stage name, but all the children were registered as Butler.

Cheers
Tim
Boyle, Butler, Yarborough, Baldwin, Midwood, McHale, Carter, Noble, Kay, Raper, Greenwood, Swift


Offline Timbottawa

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 08:57 BST (UK) »
Here are Henry's details on all the documents I have ...

Event                                   Year   Profession   Location
1st son birth cert.                   1871   Performer                   St. Geo Hanover Sq
2nd son birth certificate   1874   Actor (Theatrical)   Southport
1st dau birth certificate   1876   Actor                   Scarborough
2nd dau birth certificate   1879   Professional actor   Sth Shields
1881 census                   1881   Artist pictures   Hull
3rd son birth certificate   1881   Comedian                   Hull
3rd dau birth certificate   1883   Comedian                   West Derby (Everton)
4th son birth certificate   1884   Comedian                   West Derby (Everton)
4th son death certificate   1885   Theatrical stage manager   Newcastle
4th dau birth certificate   1886   Comedian                   Newcastle
5th dau birth certificate   1888   Comedian                    Newcastle
6th dau birth certificate   1890   Comedian                   Scarborough
1891 census                   1891   Actor                   Castleford
6th dau death certificate   1891   Theatrical mngr   Castleford
5th dau death certificate   1891   Theatrical mngr   Castleford
2nd son marriage certificate   1896   Actor   
1st son marriage certificate   1899   Gentleman   
Wife death certificate   1900   Retired licensed victualler   Scarborough
1901 census                   1901   Artist                  Scarborough
1902 town directory                   1902                     Scarborough
1st dau marriage certificate   1906   Artist                   Leeds
3rd son marriage certificate   1909   Theatrical   
Death certificate                   1909   Artist (Painter)   Hartlepool
3rd dau marriage certificate   1909   Actor   
4th dau marriage certificate   1910   Actor   
Boyle, Butler, Yarborough, Baldwin, Midwood, McHale, Carter, Noble, Kay, Raper, Greenwood, Swift

Offline Nick29

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 09:00 BST (UK) »
Just a couple of thoughts.....

Is there any possibility that the woman may have married before, and used her married name on the marriage licence ?

Don't rely too heavily on DOB's or ages from death certificates.  The information is often pure guesswork from those who reported the death, and whatever they tell (which is often totally innaccurate) is faithfully recorded.
RIP 1949-10th January 2013

Best Wishes,  Nick.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Timbottawa

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 09:17 BST (UK) »
Thanks Nick,

I had thought of that.  She would have been quite young for a 2nd marriage - she was 23 in 1871 when she appears as "Margaret Butler" in the 1871 census.  The obvious possibility is the McKale-Turney marriage in 1867, with the groom dying quickly.  But there is no Turney-Butler marriage at the right time, nor a record of a convincing Turney death at the right time.  Similarly, no other McHale marriages followed by a Butler marriage that fits this theory (I've invested quite a bit of effort in this!).

Cheers
Tim
Boyle, Butler, Yarborough, Baldwin, Midwood, McHale, Carter, Noble, Kay, Raper, Greenwood, Swift

Offline DebbieG

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 09:28 BST (UK) »
Wow Tim - that is quite a list,  it must have taken some time tracking down all those certificates - I had just had a quick look and found him in 1881 and 1901.  Sorry about all the questions - but on how many of those certificates is his middle name used? and is it always Thomas?

Debbie
Pay(n)ton, Payton, Pe(a)rton all Oxfordshire and Berkshire - particularly Abingdon

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Timbottawa

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Re: The mother of all brick walls!
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 29 July 08 09:42 BST (UK) »
Hi Debbie,

Yes, I've invested a lot of effort in this!

Henry was almost never consistent in anything!  Of those documents that record a middle name, there are 16 Henry Thomas'; 3 Henry James'; 2 Henry Johns and one Henry J.  All of the earliest records were Henry Thomas; Henry James first appeared only in 1891, and Henry John in 1900.

I don't know if this tendency to change his middle name is evidence for or against the idea that Henry Butler is a stage name!

Cheers
Tim
Boyle, Butler, Yarborough, Baldwin, Midwood, McHale, Carter, Noble, Kay, Raper, Greenwood, Swift