Can someone please date this lady and baby for me? COMPLETED - THANKS EVERYBODY

[monkeymagik]

Flippin Eck!    I missed this post first time around and have never heard about Post Mortem carte de visite!
Very Interesting & a bit shocking. You learn something new on RC every day. Cant pluck up the courage to have a look at the links showing other PMs though. ( I always was a Wimp)

 I was thinking that the lady in the photos eyes look like she could have Thyroid Disease/Graves Disease, which combined with the angle she is holding her head gives her eyes "that look".

Anyway I hope it turns out not to be a PM for the poor mothers sake.
 

[PaulaToo]

Duck everyone, coming in guns blazing...

There is something UP with this picture. It ain't'n't right.

Mum's right hand has been mucked about with and hasn't anyone noticed the baby only has one leg?
Well I can't see the other one.

I think the picture has been sliced across the line of the decoration on the child's dress.

All the PM photos I have seen have the child peaceful in bed, or a picture of it in the days when it was alive. They used to say it was less painful for the parents to see their children like that.

I think the child's left hand is out and lightly holding.
There were ways to keep children quiet in those days...you gave them a swig of something....generally something Mother kept locked in the medicine cabinet, that could be why the child is looking spaced out and floppy.

[IgorStrav]

The other thing I would add to this that I can't see anyone has mentioned yet, is that the woman seems to have a slight smile on her face.

I know that people didn't smile in photographs of this era, but you can look grim or slightly less grim.  If this IS a post mortem carte de visite, surely the mother would look grieving, rather than having a slight smile?

Just a thought.

[JJbeech]

Hi,
We think we have the woman identified as dying in child birth in 1877, am i right in suggesting that we are presuming she died in labour with her first child? (this was most common childbirth death?)

what if (and please no shooting down in flames!!) This woman lost a child in June/July 1876 (i'm taken liberties and presuming dates are a given!) whilst 3 month pregnant, she then gives birth and dies (perhaps due to complications of compsumtion) in Jan 1877, the child survives a while and then dies in June 1877?

Just a thought that explains the dates!!

JJ

JJ - this is all getting a bit confused - I have sent you a PM 

Maggie

This is an apology!!! Somehow (likely through tiredness and re-reading posts too many times) I managed to morph several folks into the one person (and i'm sure i added one who might have been an estimated date of pic!!)

So ignore the above quoted post from JJ - is't gibberish!!!

Sorry Maggie10, your pm made things much clearer although i'm sure if i had waited till i was awake your posts would have too!!!
I'm with you one of the two suggestions - nothing else to do but wait on the certs!!! BTW: Mum on board - explaing family links to me but i'll get there!

JJ

[Maggie.]

Interesting point about thyroid disease, monkeymajic - her eyes are very prominent and staring.

Paula, I agree about the hands - I mentioned earlier that her left hand looks 'touched-up' - very obvious 'drawn' lines between the fingers.  Her finger nails are dirty also.  My OH commented that her right hand looked false - like a bunch of bananas; I think it looks swollen.  I agree the leg looks odd stuck out like that and makes you wonder where the other leg is - could it be under the child's left hand? Could the hand be lightly gripping the leg?  I don't think the picture has been sliced, I think the dress is quite full and bunched up.

IgorStrav - I personally don't think she is smiling.  To me, her mouth looks clenched - as though she is biting her bottom lip or pursing her lips.  I think she looks fairly grim.

Who ever this photo is of, it was important enough to make it into someone's photo album.  My copy is a photo of the album page and you can see one photograph corner where the carte which appears to be mounted on white card, is held in place .  My original scan on page one shows it.

Maggie

Hi JJ 

[PaulaToo]

Sorry Maggie, I couldn't resist having a play with the photo.
Well, at least I've put in a second foot and she is sitting more squarely on the chair.
It's only crude, copy and paste job on the Vista Paint...really just because I felt like doing it. I hope you don't mind.

One other thing, does the photo have a black edge... memorial photos often did.

[PaulaToo]

Oh eck and um.....
If it was a PM card, wouldn't the woman be in black....
I don't think that's faded black, because theres a band of decoration that is darker......

[Maggie.]

Hi Paula,

Thanks for the touch up and the foot addition - I don't mind at all and I think you are very talented 

I think it was JJ that noticed her gown wasn't black, we came to the conclusion that it was perhaps brown - cerainly same tone as her hair.  It never occured to me that it might be a memorial photo before I started this post, so all these things like the dress colour, I hadn't paid much attention to before.  I just thought it was a couple of rather strange looking ancestors!!

I cannot see a black edge - just the photo on a white background which I assume was card.  My photo is a copy on flimsy photographic paper.  Goodness knows who photographed the album and when 

I've been doing a spot of googling tonight to see what medical condition might explain those black marks on her hand.  A suggestion from JJ's OH that it might be gangrene got me going.    Anyway, whilst no medical expert, I have discovered that severe secondary Raynaud's disease can cause tissue death in the extremities resulting in gangrene!!  Raynaud's disease can also result from problems with the thyroid, amongst other things.  I wonder what those death certificates will reveal 

[Rabbit B]

Laudanum  Paula,
 
That is what they used to quieten babies, in the old days it has a sort of sedative effect!

Rabbit B