Matson the Millers at Upper Deal

[doverrog]

Hello,
I have been working on the Matson family branch who were Millers at Upper Deal.
William Matson who died in 1826 owned Upper Deal Mill and this was passed on to his son William (1784-1842).
I have been unable to trace the birth/christening of the elder William although I have his marriage in October 1781 at St. Leonards, Deal to Mary Hyder.
I'm guessing this would mean that William would have been born about 1761?
Although it seems likely he was born in Deal I cannot find any record.
I have this note "Thomas MATSON  apprenticed to Thomas RAMMELL of Deal, Baker 1771,  fee £12. 15s.
(ref: 67/213  Inland revenue records at PRO)"
So perhaps Thomas Matson was the father of William? However I cannot find any record for this Thomas either!
My current thinking is linked to this record -
William MATSON (son of James MATSON of St Margaret's at Cliffe, yeoman) by Indenture 1 May 1714 with consent of his father was apprenticed to Robert HATTON of Dover, Baker, for 7 years;  consideration £15 paid to the master. Inrolled 4 Jan 1714-15  (Dover Apprentice Enrollments, Kent Co.Archives)
A William Matson (Baker) is made a Freeman of Dover on the 26th July 1722 by apprenticeship (Folio 3).
It’s possible that William Matson who was married in 1781, and therefore probably born about 1755-60,  may be the grandson of this William as he was a Baker and Miller at Upper Deal.

Can anyone help with any records that may perhaps confirm or disprove my thinking?

In particular the birth of William Matson who married Mary Hyder would really help.
As always your help is greatly appreciated.

[casalguidi]

Hi Rog

The 1841 census shows William MATSON of Upper Deal Mill as age 67 thus born about 1773/1774 not c1783/1784.  Do you have a death or burial to confirm his age?  Otherwise, if this 1841 census entry is correct, it might be a bit unlikely that he was the son of a couple who married in 1781

1841

Upper Deal Mill

William MATSON 67 miller Y
Thomas 22 miller Y
Frederick 16 miller Y
Mary 57 Y
Mary (?)9 Y
/
Thomas WHITEWOOD 22 male servant Y

HO107/466 folio 9 page 9

You say that Upper Deal Mill was previously owned by a William MATSON who died in 1826 and who was William's father ................... can we ask your sources for this?  I only ask because the tithe award schedule for Deal shows Thomas WHITEWOOD as the owner of Upper Deal Mill and Mrs MATSON as the occupier http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Maps/DEA/02.htm

I see there is a will for a Mary MATSON (widow of Deal) 1843 - is that of any relevance? http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/wills.asp

William MATSON of Deal miller ba & Eliz Eve COLLARD of the same sp.  Lic. granted 7 Apr 1801 ....................... I assume this is the previous marriage of the William MATSON (of Upper Deal Mill 1841) who was widowed (of Deal)  when he married Mary WHITEWOOD (lic. granted 26 Oct 1813).  Have you sighted either of these marriages to see whether there are any clues ie. relatives signing?

Casalguidi

[doverrog]

Thanks casalguidi.
I'm checking to find where I got my date of birth for William the younger. I have a precise date of christening as 11th January 1784 in Deal, but so far my filing system(!!!) has failed to reveal the paper with that info. on it!

From a book 'Watermills and Windmills' relating to Kentish Mills.
In 1840  the mill  was owned by a widow, Mrs Matson and that the new smock mill was built for her son.  The family continued to use it for a great number of year.
Fred Matson was the miller in 1878, according to a directory of that date, and he held it as late as 1894.
From the same book 'Watermills and Windmills' relating to Kentish Mills.
Without dates it refers to George Matson as the miller, but says that Mrs
Matson, widow, was the owner in 1840. This means, I guess that George died
1839/40 and that the new smock mill was built for her son. It says that this
family continued to use it for a great number of years. Frederick Matson was
the miller in1878 and had it as late as 1894.
Also this reference -
Mary MATSON widow  built replacement smock mill for her son,  Deal
(Bygone Kent, Vol.1 No.12,  page 743 onwards, Deal's Windmills)

I have this - Wm Matson of Deal miller bach & Eliz Eve Collard of the s sp.  07 Apr 1801 which is indeed the marriage record for William the miller.
William second marriage, 28th October 1813 Deal, to Mary Whitewood seems to fit. As does Frederick 1851 census and above book.

1851 census has Mary MATSON head wid   67  born Tilmanstone
Thomas Matson son Unm  32  farmer Deal
Frederick  "       son Unm  26   Miller Deal
Mary Ann  "       dau Unm  28  Millers daughter  b. Deal
Thomas WHITEWOOD visitor widr 70  Retired Carpenter   b. Eastry
Ann SUTTON  unm 18    Millers Ap.      B. Whitfield
(DEAL,  Upper Deal Mill House 1851 Census, page 8, fol.640, No.34)

So we now have a possibility of two mills owned by Matsons.
Upper Deal by William, born ? and buried 25th October 1826, and passed onto his son William , 1784 or 1794 to 1842. Owned by his surviving wife Mary Whitewood whose son Frederick Matson became the miller.

As to ownership I'm now wondering if Thomas Whitewood was Mary Whitewood's father and if he owned the mill. The book being wrong?
Would the Tithes records be definitive?
Although as Thomas is described as a retired carpenter perhaps it means that another Whitewood. possibly a brother of Thomas, was the mill owner.

To add to the confusion the book about mills refers to a George Matson as being the miller who I cannot find at all.

So I need to confirm the dob for William Matson the elder and also find a record of George Matson as a miller and if a Thomas Matson, the apprentice of Thomas Rammell, is another earlier miller in Deal who may be an ancestor.
Thomas MATSON  apprenticed to Thomas RAMMELL of Deal, Baker 1771,  fee £12. 15s. (ref: 67/213  Inland revenue records at PRO) 

All help gratefully received.
Also some more about a possible Whitewood who could be a miller.

[casalguidi]

Hi Rog

I'm checking to find where I got my date of birth for William the younger. I have a precise date of christening as 11th January 1784 in Deal

The problem as I see it is that this William baptised 1784 may not be the same William that was at Upper Deal Mill in 1841 if the age in the 1841 census is correct and, also, if he was baptised 1784 then he would probably have been 17 years of age at his first marriage - not impossible of course but one would expect there to be mention of him being a minor on the marriage licence or parish register entry   Do you have an age at burial for William (husband of Mary WHITEWOOD)

1792 Deal directoryWilliam MATSON, baker

1824 Deal directory
Wm MATSON, Middle St, baker
............ MATSON, Alfred Square, miller

1839 Deal directory
*Mrs MATSON, Market Street (under nobility, gentry & clergy)
Mary MATSON, baker, 21 Middle Street
Phillip MATSON, baker, Duke Street
**George MATSON, miller, Upper Deal

* She would probably be the Mary MATSON age 80 living in Market Street 1841 census (independant born Kent) and perhaps she is the one with the PCC will mentioned above.

** George - could he be William's father or uncle or brother etc.

1847 Deal directory
Mary MATSON, corn miller, Upper Deal
Mary MATSON, farmer, Upper Deal

As to ownership I'm now wondering if Thomas Whitewood was Mary Whitewood's father and if he owned the mill. The book being wrong?
Would the Tithes records be definitive?

I have found tithe records to be generally accurate - that one is dated 30 Jan 1843 so it could be that things changed if William had died by then or it could be that the MATSONs didn't actually own the land but the business

Casalguidi

[casalguidi]

Hi Rog

There was another family of MATSONs with a milling connection:

John HALSEY junior of St Peter Canterbury, wid, cordwainer & Mary Eliz MATSON of Willesborough, 18, father Wm MATSON miller to marry at Willesborough.  Marriage Lic. granted 12 Sep 1791.

Mary Elizabeth could be part of this family:

William MATSON & Mary BACK married Ashford 1771

Children

Mary Elizabeth 1773 (married John HALSEY?)
Sarah 1774
William 1776
Prudence 1777 (married Thomas MARCH?)
Gellinger 1778 (married Eleanor GARRICK)
Ann 1780 (married Simon SELMES?)
Thomas 1783
Ann 1787
Barbara 1789

They appear to have moved away from Ashford at some point http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/01/ASH/01/00m.htm

A Prudence MATSON married Thomas MARCH at St Peter & Paul, Milton, Gravesend 1 Jan 1798.  The marriage was witnessed by a William MATSON (father/brother?) - can his signature be compared to other signatures anywhere

http://www.rootschat.com/links/03rf/

Casalguidi

[casalguidi]

Another MATSON miller .........

Mr R MATSON, Barfrestone, miller - bankrupt - London Gazette 10 Mar 1821

Casalguidi

[doverrog]

Thanks casalguidi.
I spent some time yesterday looking through information about Mills but nothing.
It seems as though there are possibly 2/3 Matson families who are millers.
One in Ashford and a possible two in the Deal area.  The R. Matson bankrupt is completely new as well, although he could be linked to the Deal family.
The info about the Ashford family has helped me tie together several loose ends, although I still have them as a separate group and not as yet linked to my main tree.
The first Deal family linked to the Whitewoods/Hyder families and the second Deal family possibly linked to the Rammell family.

The Deal information I have verified against reliable sources/parish etc although that date for William the younger of 11th January 1784 in Deal is still not turning up in my records so remains a mystery.
I have a confirmed burial date for William Matson the elder as 25th October 1826. For his wife, Mary Hyder, I have a date of death as in the December Quarter 1843 (from Free BMD). This fits with the will date of November 1843.
A date of death for William Matson the younger as in the June Quarter 1842 (from Free BMD)
Looking at the records we now have it seems that the mysterious George, who is referred to in the book and in the 1839 Directory you quoted, is the more likely to be the ancestor we need to find out about. However I can find no references to him anywhere else!
Thomas Matson, the apprentice of 1771, is still a possible link although not as a father/son relationship.
Would I be correct that an apprentice would probably be in his early teens and therefore born about 1857?
If so then William the elder, who married in 1781, say about 20 years old, would be born about 1761ish which seems to say that Thomas and William the elder are about the same age. Possibly brothers?
Could it be that the 'missing' George is yet another brother?
Could R. Matson, bankrupt of Barfrestone be a fourth brother?

Also I wonder if anyone may have something about the Whitewood family as we have 'Thomas WHITEWOOD visitor widr 70  Retired Carpenter   b. Eastry - 1851 census' and I have found 'Ann Whitewoods’ death  recorded in the March Quarter of 1844 in Eastry Registration District (5  123) which includes Tilmanstone where Mary was born.
Perhaps, as there are a few Whitewoods in Free Dmd in the same area, that may help identify the Matson family origins ?
The Deal Tithe award schedule - 30th January 1843 showing Mary as both at the Mill and being tenant of 3 pieces of land fits with the 1847 directory entry.
As well as the Whitewood family I also wonder if anyone may be able to help with anything about Marys' family, the HYDERs?
To recap it's George Matson and Thomas Matson that I would really love to trace  but as yet I'm still stumped.

[k matson]

thomas matson born 1818 what became of him  regards ken

[casalguidi]

Ken, do you mean this one?

1851 census has Mary MATSON head wid   67  born Tilmanstone
Thomas Matson son Unm  32  farmer Deal
Frederick  "       son Unm  26   Miller Deal
Mary Ann  "       dau Unm  28  Millers daughter  b. Deal
Thomas WHITEWOOD visitor widr 70  Retired Carpenter   b. Eastry
Ann SUTTON  unm 18    Millers Ap.      B. Whitfield
(DEAL,  Upper Deal Mill House 1851 Census, page 8, fol.640, No.34)

In 1861 he is still at the same address with his mother whilst in 1871 he is in Church Street, Walmer living with his sister - do you have these details and/or what is it specifically you would like to know?

Casalguidi