Author Topic: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham  (Read 63447 times)

Offline NEILKE

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #72 on: Wednesday 03 June 09 22:18 BST (UK) »
hi bertram do you be long sunderland because i certain gregson from sunderland wrote a book tracing your northing ancesters.
regards neil
kenny from ireland befre moveing to north shields  flaxen/flexon from cumnor then sunderland robinson from rothbury then north shields urqhart somewhere in scotland then sunderland

Offline Withnail

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #73 on: Saturday 13 June 09 11:12 BST (UK) »
I know it's not all up and running yet, but there's nothing new on this website
www.maryanncotton.co.uk

When is "the author's" book coming out?  It's been a long time coming! ;)

Offline Withnail

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #74 on: Saturday 13 June 09 11:18 BST (UK) »
"Bertram"  is the "author" who has paramount and unknown information going to shed any light on the death mask?!

Now that WOULD be information that Arthur Appleton and Tony Whitehead could not divulge!

Anything else would just be the same old gubbins regurgitated! This was her house..... in today's modernity the case would have been thrown out of a court of law .......   and so on.

Offline Withnail

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #75 on: Saturday 13 June 09 11:32 BST (UK) »
hmmm, I may take back my statement about the same old gubbins!  The execution part on the website is very interesting.  Some of the same old gubbins....but some very interesting information jazzing it up a bit. 

Bertram... will the "author" be stating where his paramount information is coming from?  Such as... how he knows Calcraft took  the noose to London and sold it to Tussauds... or how he knows her shoes and shawl were buried with her?


Offline Bertram Gregson

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #76 on: Sunday 14 June 09 00:12 BST (UK) »
Dear Withnail,
                      I have read your last comments on the MAC website and your kind sentiments concerning the execution details. I have a connection to the author and proposed biography of MAC, and I can clarify your concerns. The information which is written within the manuscript, could not come from a better source, such as MAC's living relations, it is they who have the information which is otherwise unknown to Appleton or Tony Whitehead. It is therefore without doubt that the information is genuine and without reproach or such that the information should be questioned. There can be no question as to their recollections and comments, who apart from them can supply such comments, who on Roots chat can question their information, if they are not related. However I can state with accuracy that Calcraft took the rope with him to Hoxton London, he regarded the possession of the rope(s) after executions as being his property, it was as he stated many times "his perk" because he could sell the item of a notable criminal ie, the rope to a collector of exhibits. The rope which hung MAC was not within the coffin or attached to MAC's neck, whilst the Coroners Inquest was being conducted later that afternoon. This information is not questionable as it is recorded within Home Office documents. The Coroner stated quite clearly that Calcraft had the rope, and further to that we know that Calcraft did indeed sell the items to either Madame Tussauds or arranged collectors, he was noted for this action, as the Home Secretary and Department had known about this for many years. The shoes and shawl were also without doubt placed within the coffin, as later that afternoon at the inquest MAC's relation(s) identified her corpse, they took nothing away from her coffin. Durham Prison at that time in 1873 had a procedure in place which quite clearly was adopted by Calcraft. No prisoner would be executed with clothing which would in any way hinder the execution, ie the neck shawl. It is for reference that earlier the week before her execution, MAC's child was adopted by a childless couple from West Auckland, the shawl was ripped in half and the child was wrapped within it and taken from her arms and prison. Before her execution she left her condemned cell wearing the same dress which she had been arrested in, 1872. Her shawl was over her shoulders as she was escorted to the Gallows, she wore a hair net which kept her hair free from her face. Before the execution all items which would hinder the execution were removed. Indeed Durham Prison confirmed this fact in 2008. Also a point to mention is that the execution white hood was also taken by Calcraft, there is no mention whatsoever of this item, as the rope being present in the coffin. The death mask is another point, I have myself written to numerous academic institutes throughout the UK, they have no knowledge of the whereabouts of the mask, I also contacted the Black Museum, they as with the numerous institutes have no knowledge of the mask, so I assume personally that the mask is probably in a collectors hands. Probably the collector does not even know who the mask is from, but then again that is my own opinion. As for the information above, it is fully accurate and not in question, either the recollections of MAC's living relations are false or so called biographers are truthful, I know from my own experience, that family tales and recollections are far superior to the optimistic biographer. I hope withnail that this information will set your mind and thoughts on the path of truthfulness as being recorded by MAC's descendants, it is they who recollect the facts within the manuscript.

Bertram Gregson.
Mary Ann Cotton.

Offline Withnail

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #77 on: Sunday 14 June 09 07:52 BST (UK) »
Thanks Bertram,

It is good that her family will talk willingly about her. 

Descendents of people who have allegedly murdered can feel guilt brought on by shame that they feel as well as ridicule from others... This shame is especially felt by descendents who are elderly. 

As generations go by, I suppose the shame/ guilt factor wears off and that's how they can talk so freely about her. 

As for the death mask... I think I'll have to give up on the thought that it could be found.  I heard she was a beautiful woman and I thought that seeing her death mask might have shed some light on it.... but reading the description of when the hood was taken from her face, I am thinking the beauty may not have been evident anymore!


Thanks again

Withnail

Offline Bertram Gregson

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #78 on: Sunday 14 June 09 10:43 BST (UK) »
Dear withnail,
Many thanks for your comments and kind words, yes I fully agree with your comment of the death mask, I too would be very eager to see this mask. I too have heard that she was a beautiful woman, and was very recognizable, also her hair was said to be as black as raven's wings with a shimmering shine. I know that the author of the proposed manuscript, has many accountable details of her life, such as those gained from her descendants, it appears as though the author has traced her life from birth to death, and has dispelled many accounts which are too familiar on the internet or written statements which are far from the truth. The author I believe has based this biography on a re-write with the aim to establish the facts as they are recorded, with scientific evidence, and accounts taken from her own statements, witnesses, and home office documents, and newspaper reports of the day. I think the aim is not to specify categorically that she is 100% innocent, but to lay before the reader the actual evidence, and of the forensics, and of the details which had remained unknown, such as the disappearing evidences lost or not produced to Professor Scattergood in Leeds, when as the policeman who delivered it said it had and was signed for, it is evident that items were missing, as several were signed for and not exammined or logged as never being received. I like many research family history, it is said that MAC killed up to 15 members of her family in a short period. However a case in question (from the 1911 Census) concerning my research was, that an ancestor gave birth to 13 children, 9 of those children died in a short period of time. This is in itself not uncommon in the Victorian era, thousands of families throughout the UK suffered the same fate. My ancestors would turn in their graves if they were later suspected of murdering 9 of their children in a short time. So I think the author is trying to refresh the debate with new forensics and factual comments as recognised in our era.

Good to hear from you and thanks for your kind comments.

Bertram.
Mary Ann Cotton.

Offline Withnail

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #79 on: Sunday 14 June 09 16:30 BST (UK) »
I look forward to reading it!  ;)

Offline Shelly64

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Re: Mary Ann Cotton 1839-1873 Durham
« Reply #80 on: Tuesday 07 July 09 00:20 BST (UK) »
Just came across this forum whilst searching for information on Mary Ann Cotton.  I found out today that her 3rd husband James Robinson is my husbands 1st cousin 4 times removed so will wait with anticipation for the release of the new book.

So, I added her to my tree but I'm having a little trouble locating all her children..  anyone know where I can view her tree online?


Thanks...