Author Topic: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please  (Read 12191 times)

Offline bones58

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday 11 June 08 20:36 BST (UK) »
Hi All,

I seem to have started quite a debate here!!

As I said in my first post, I have only recently started tracing my Scottish ancestry, so I'm grateful for any information that helps point me in the right direction.

I know from checking original records on other branches of my tree, that more information can often be obtained than is shown on the IGI and was hoping that this would be the case with William and Elizabeth's marriage.  Also, I wanted to confirm that they actually married because knowing that Elizabeth had three illegitimate children after William's death, I wanted to check she wasn't just a 'good-time girl' who was free and easy with her favours !!



Being new to RootsChat, I have yet to read all of Tom's posts on the connecting families, so I cannot comment on how he works or the source of his information, but he has given me other avenues to explore and an idea of the area.


In response to Trish's questions, Elizabeth's father David was listed as a domestic servant on the certificate for her marriage to William Johnson.
Elizabeth was 23 when her son Henry was born so I imagine that there was 7-8 years when she may have gone to Ireland but the census returns show that the rest of the family stayed in Scoonie.

Bones ;)
Coast-Kent, Head-Kent, Brigden-Kent,Cowan-Norfolk,Whiting-Norfolk, Nutt-Bucks, Stannett-Bucks, Trail-Fife, Galbally- London, Halloran-Bermondsey, Messenger-Bermondsey

Offline tommacgregor

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 11 June 08 23:07 BST (UK) »

Hello All,

I will not be drawn into any unwanted discussion on RootSchat. I have far more important matters to deal with in my daily life. I thank you, Sancti, for your kind words, and I'm sure that Bones' reference to the connections in his family says it all. He clearly states that he hasn't had the opportunity to read all my postings about connections to his family. Need I point that out that this would include the WESTWATER's, who are unarguably connected to him through the TRAIL's. When he reads through all the postings, he may find many more connections that he's interested in.

I am perfectly happy to continue assisting people to the best of my ability, but any suggestion that the work that I do each day merely covers just a few minutes in time, is sheer nonsense. Because of my impairments, I am forced to work at a steady rate, and I'm quite happy to continue doing that. As you appear to be saying, Sancti, I try to help people out to the best of my ability. I'm certainly no expert,, or "self-expressed" expert in the field of genealogy.

Just to add a bit of a smile to the proceedings: Definition of an expert: "A drip under pressure".

Again, any further attempts to involve me in unwanted dialogue will simply be deleted from my computer.

Kind Regards,


Tom.

In much the same way as Bones, a person has contacted me from the United States this morning, who shares some of my ancestors.

Offline trish251

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 12 June 08 00:16 BST (UK) »
Hi Bones

I was hoping the family may have gone to Ireland - but it does seem unlikely from the information you currently have. It is disappointing that your first venture into Scotland did not resolve the missing marriage as Scottish records of this time are usually very reliable and relatively easy to find. My only other suggestion would be to see if you can find Church records for the time in question. A baptism for Henry (1859) may indicate the church.

The current Church at Leven (formerly Scoonie Kirk) has a website - with contact details
http://www.levenparish.org.uk/

Trish

I will continue to disagree with sourceless assertions and regret that such disagreement results in a tirade of coloured writing directed against my view, to the confusion of the thread starter. A simple answer that a source has not been found, or the detail of a source that is available, is a much more useful outcome to the question.








 
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Offline sancti

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #30 on: Thursday 12 June 08 00:34 BST (UK) »
Bones, I suppose it is possible that the marriage took place pre 1855 outside the Established Church of Scotland and that is why it may not be available on the OPR's on SP


Offline tommacgregor

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #31 on: Thursday 12 June 08 02:00 BST (UK) »


Hello again, Bones,

I will refer to the interest that you have shown on this thread to the connections to the TRAILS. You stated, (and I quote): "I know Elizabeth Trail was the daughter of David as he appears on the marriage certificate for her second marriage"

Now, I did have a look at Extracted birth/christening records for not only Elizabeth, but also her sisters, Grace and Agnes, as well as her brothers, James and Andrew.

As we can see from those extracted records, we're looking at a time period of around 1828 - 1839.

I have always maintained an interest in legal matters and so, a while ago, I was looking for some information about an early form of Legal Aid and appear to have found it when the Sheriff Courts in Scotland appointed a Procurator for a woman if she couldn't afford the cost of an action against the father of her illegitimate child.

Knowing your interest in the TRAIL family, (sometimes spelt TRAILL), I had a look at a couple of TRAIL lassies and read about Grace TRAILL, who was residing at Auchtermuchty taking action against an Alexander PEDDIE. She had an illegitimate baby girl born 3rd August, 1848. Then there was a Jemima TRAIL, who came from Largoward, (not all that far from Scoonie). She took action against an Andrew DOWIE, a farm servant. She gave birth to a baby girl on 23rd April, 1836.

I'm sure that you're not all that interested in the source of information, but it is possible to look at the Extract Decree Books of various Fife Sheriff Courts such as Dunfermline and Cupar. These are held at the Scottish Record Office in Edinburgh. I obtain many pieces of information from sources like that, as well as Fife newspapers going back over the years. Indeed, it was in the Dunfermline Press that I read about the death of my Grandfather at No. 2 Pit, Bowhill. Not the kind of stuff that we get from certain sources, but certainly very informative and enjoyable.  ;D

If you really want an interesting read about Aliment Decrees, then it's no big secret as to how to do it. I spent quite a few pofitable hours reading about people who lived in the same streets or Wynds as members of my family, people who worked shoulder to shoulder with them, and so on and so forth.

Although it may not be copies of documents obtainable from sources such as Ancestry, S.P., the IGI, it certainly does provide names and dates that assists me in establishing various details about my ancestors. I'm not, for one moment, decrying those sources, I'm just trying to indicate how I utilise other resources to obtain information.

I feel that maybe I should be communicating with you on another Thread, Bones, even though you have referred to the TRAILS's and MELDRUM's on this one. However, I gave my word to Pam, the Fife Moderator, some time ago, that I would try to keep my postings in the appropriate Thread, and I'm honouring my word.

If there are people out there, including you, Bones, who want to get back to details about the various branches of your family, then maybe you would care to select an appropriate Thread, or create one of your own. That way, other people who share your interest in a particular family can supply you with information quite openly. However, when information about a family becomes "sensitive", I personally choose to work in a different way, so as not to offend other family members. I think that's perfectly reasonable, don't you?

Kind Regards,


Tom.



Offline trish251

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #32 on: Thursday 12 June 08 06:10 BST (UK) »
I have yet to meet a family researcher who is not interested in the source of information. Most of us do not have easy access to information from the Scottish archives. I have been very fortunate in the past to meet some wonderful folks from Edinburgh online who have willingly searched for a number of different items related to my Fife and Renfrew families. Quoting alternative sources for research is not the same as providing a source for a specific piece of information.

In 2008 there is very little about families in the 1800s that is "sensitive". We have all discovered family secrets, found marriages that did not happen and more illegitimate children than were ever expected to exist. Bigamy, in the days before more easy access to divorce, also was more common than many of us realised. People haven't changed very much over the past 200 years, but institutions and beliefs have altered. We now accept very openly what was once "sensitive".

RootsChat rules discourage (probably a stronger word is needed) identifying living folks on open boards. I entirely agree with this rule, but folks born in the 1800s certainly don't fit into this category.

By continually encouraging folks to discuss things "off the boards" the  losers are those people who thus limit the information they may otherwise obtain.

I won't delete anyone from my computer, but continually beating my head against a wall is somewhat  pointless so I can only assume, if the source of this marriage does exist, it shall not be revealed anytime soon.

Do let us know if you discover any other information Bones - it is always interesting to hear  the final outcomes of  RootsChatters queries  :)

Trish
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Offline sancti

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #33 on: Thursday 12 June 08 08:55 BST (UK) »
I certainly agree with Trish that by sharing information by email or the Personal Message facility is denying other researchers the information that they may need to fill in blanks in their research. Verifying the source of information is very important to ensure we are following the correct line.

We have no control over the indiscretions of our ancestors 200 years ago and the way they led their lives. I certainly wouldn't find illegitimate births, bigamy or divorce a sensitive subject in my tree.


Further to some of the information Tom posted, there is mention of a few female TRAILS here

http://www.fifefhs.org/Records/cupardecrees.htm

Offline tommacgregor

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #34 on: Thursday 12 June 08 13:16 BST (UK) »


Hello Bones,

On Sunday, 86th June, of this year , you posted a message to me stating: "Not knowing Scotland at all, I'm finding it difficult to relate to the different parishes in terms of distances from each other, i.e. James father was married in Kettle, but David was born in Scoonie. The IGI doesn't have a James trail born in Kettle, so I don't know where to look for him! Any help or advice would be greatly received."

I believe that I did give help and advice since I'm quite familiar with the area. I'm pleased to have been of some assistance in that area.

On Tuesday, 10th June, 2008 , you were kind enough to direct an answer to me in your posting. Unlike others who seem more interested in denegrating my efforts, I have continued to work on in an attempt to assist you further rather than take any notice of the rudeness being displayed.

I am pleased to report a bit of success for you. Here it is:

In the year 1881, we find your William W. Johnson aged 59 who had been born in Cambridge and his wife,  Elizabeth Cowen (note the spelling!), shown as being aged 47, which, if my mental arithmetic isn't too rusty, makes her date of birth in Scotland as being about 1834.

With them we find Elizabeth Ann Cowen, the daughter- in -law of William Wilkin Johnson living at Bridge Street Millers Yard at Kings Lynn in Norfolk. The Census tells us that she was aged about 18, meaning that she would have been born about 1863. Just as important, the Census tells us that she was born at Eye in Suffolk. That coincides with the information that you were kind enough to give me.

We also find  William Cowen, (note the spelling), the son-in-law of William aged about 14, who had been born in Lynn in Norfolk. That also coincides with the information from you that stated that William Johnson and Elizabeth Cowan had moved to Kings Lynn by 1865.

Further, a David Cowen, aged about 10 is shown as the son-in-law of the Head of the Household. That would mean that his date of birth would have been around 1871. He too was born at Lynn (as stated on the Census).

Then we have a Malinda Cowen, shown as the daughter-in-law of the Head of the Household aged about 7, meaning that she would have been born about 1874, and she too was born at Lynn, according to the Census.

I'm sure that you will agree that I have kept my word in that I said I would try to assist you. I have done that, not in just a few minutes, but at a speed geared to my disability. I have done it with a good heart, and if I can continue to assist you in this manner, then I'm delighted to be able to do so.

As always,

Kind Regards,


Tom.


Offline trish251

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Re: Scoonie/Leven Marriage Look Up Please
« Reply #35 on: Thursday 12 June 08 15:39 BST (UK) »
On May 28, on this thread, Bones asked a question
Can anyone help me?  I'm looking for a marriage for Elizabeth Trail and William Cowan c.1858  in Scoonie/Leven .
William was Irish and I think he came from Bangor in County Down.


Despite much searching no-one was been able to find any record of this marriage.

On June 10 Tom stated
As I see it, David TRAIL married Ann MELDRUM on the 27th October, 1827 at Scoonie and they named their eldest daughter, Agnes Swan TRAIL who was born in August 1828 at Scoonie. One of her sisters was indeed Elizabeth TRAIL, born 12th January, 1836 and yes, she went on to marry William COWAN in 1858 at Scoonie.

Despite being asked MANY times, where the information as to this marriage came from, Tom has only responded by providing more and more dates on other family members, contained within the IGI. He has protested that the IGI is not as good a source as other options, but it seems to be his main source of reference. I have NO issue with this fact, the IGI is a very good source of Scotland records, but it does not answer the original query - Can anyone find the marriage?

Today, Tom has stated
On Sunday, 86th June, of this year , you posted a message to me stating: "Not knowing Scotland at all, I'm finding it difficult to relate to the different parishes in terms of distances from each other ...

I am unsure if this query was a PM to Tom, or a general message on the boards. If it was on the boards, I am sorry I missed it. If it was a PM, that is a little sad, as there are many many resources to assist with the location of parishes and their distances from each other. PMs reduce the possiblity of other folks seeing your queries. Consequently there may be many resources you do not know about. I will mention just three  at the minute

I use a parish map of Fife - available here
http://www.thefifepost.com/map.htm
This is linked to by genuki - great for Fife sources
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/FIF/index.htm

For distances, I use a little program called parloc (parish locator) It is freely available to download and provides
-names of all the parishes in each county of the UK
-distance between any two parishes
-names of parishes in a requested radius from a starting parish
-and a few other reports/diagrams that I use
It is great - it's on my destop and I use it all the time. e.g. If someone is born in Markinch on the IGI but the census says Leslie, you will find they are only 3 miles apart and likely to be the same person. Sometimes children are born in a nearby parish, which may be in a different county. This is also very easy to check.
You can download it from here
http://www.parloc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/parlocdl.html

Information on parish records, registers, registration districts and various other useful items are also available online and for download from the GRO Scotland website
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/famrec/hlpsrch/list-of-parishes-registration-districts.html

Any queries on these links, do please ask

Trish



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