White family of Whitehall Broughshane

[Cathy ck]

Hi Frank! Enjoy your picnic! It's raining here and chaotic traffic. There's some kind of truck rally and roads round Portrush, Portstewart and Coleraine are jam-packed.

I'm totally baffled over link to Sir George. Of course you're right - you've done much more research than I! Have been online nearly 24/7 trying to establish elusive link.

What I can't get is direct link, but I know it's there. Why did Jack, George's son, visit my grandfather every Sunday? Why did he want my grandfather to buy Whitehall to keep it in the family? Why did solicitors come after Jack's death to tell my grandfather he was closest living link to Sir George? Just wonder if there are some undiscovered skeletons in the closet of the White clan.

This link: libraryireland.com showed in 1910 there was indeed a Jack White in Roughan, Broughshane and General Sir George White CB, The Misses White at Whitehall (less than 2 miles from Roughan).

Going to drive to my Uncle Sammy's tomorrow to see if I can jog his memory (he's 95). He's still in Broughshane.

Wish I could send you pic of my grandfather. He looks like all the Whites and so proud in his uniform. He was in Royals and Blues and would have had career there, but was told to come home to farm as, allegedly their servants were taking advantage and running farm into the ground. He would have preferred military career in England. He bred racehorses eventually, as well as farming, but always loved horses and had one racing in Grand National in 1950s. I'm sure the Field Marshall would have been proud.

Keep in touch.
Cathy

[TheWhuttle]

General Sir George Stuart WHITE was the son of James Robert WHITE (JRW) and Frances Ann STEWART (FAS).
[He was famous for refusing to obey an order to surrender control of the besieged Ladysmith during the 2nd Boer War, holding on for 4 months till relieved.]

If your favoured line of ascent proves correct (Kathleen, James, John, JRW & FAS) , then he would be your great-grand-uncle, and you his great-great-neice.
[Aka, your relationship, through JRW & FAS, is 0-th cousins, three-times removed.]

-----

The General's only son was James Robert WHITE, known as "Jack".

He became radicalised during the First World War, and helped to co-found the socialist Irish Citizen's Army.  He was associated later with the IRB and then the IRA.
[Perhaps inspired by Sir Roger CASEMENT, who hailed from the same neck of the woods and social standing.]

You could ask your uncle Sammy whether he has any knowledge of "Jack" being present in the Four Courts building on Inns Quay in Dublin during their seven week occupation there (14APR1922 - 30JUN1922).
[Probably not though, since Jack was not a fan of De VALERA, the driving force behind the Anti-Treaty IRA faction.]

They set fire to the building on Wed 28JUN1922.  The outgoing British Government authorities put pressure on the newly formed Irish Free State administration to take decisive action.  They promptly asked to borrow the use of some field guns and bombarded the building.  Such actions restored authoritative political control but, sadly, had dramatic negative implications for the integrity of record sources useful to genealogists.

"Jack"'s 2nd wife together with the help from the WHITE family, ashamed for the family because of his radical ideas and violent leanings, burned all of his books and correspondence after his death.

Capt. Jock

http://www.bydand.net/major-george-white-vc/
https://www.geni.com/people/Field-Marshal-Sir-George-Stuart-White-VC-GCMG-GCVO/6000000015208587960

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Irish_Citizen_Army
http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Jack_White_(trade_unionist)

http://www.paulobrienauthor.ie/irish-civil-war/assault-on-dublin-1922/
http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-records-burned.html


ADDENDUM

There is much about "Jack" online, including pictures of Whitehall and the huge family memorial in the graveyard of 1st Pb Broughshane.
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite/bio.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite/pics.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchists/jackwhite.html

Looks like "Jack" may not have been in Dublin in 1922.
He was in gaol in Edinburgh in 1921, then a political candidate in Donegal in 1922.


My cousin lived nearby to Broughshane and mixed in the higher circles of society (dealing in antiques).  Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago.  Shame, he'd have had stories!

Certainly, Sir George was treated as a great national treasure by Queen Victoria.
His wife, Amelia Maria BALY, died at her home - in Hampton Court Palace!

[fohwhite]

Cathy,

Looking forward to any info from visit to Uncle Sammy.  By the way, I have sent you a RootsChat Personal Message with info not appropriate for Chat posts.

I believe the best two candidates to be the direct link between your Grandfather James and the Whites of Whitehall are:

(1) James White (1832-1860), first son of James Robert ("The Councillor") and older brother of the General.  Unfortunately, research at FamilySearch.org, Ancestry.com, Findmypast.com, as well as numerous other internet queries, have revealed nothing more than date of birth and death for this James.  He died well before your Grandfather was born in 1877, but he could have had a son who was father to your Grandfather.   

(2)  John White (1785-1857), the "The Auld Captain" and brother of James Robert, could have had a son who was the father of your Grandfather.  Research in the sources mentioned above, as well as the 1915 biography of the General, reveal nothing about marriage or children of this John.  According to the General's biography, "The Auld Captain" was heir to Whitehall in 1804 and apparently lived there his entire life.  His brother James Robert and wife stayed with him at Whitehall for a short period after their marriage but then lived in a succession homes in other  Antrim locations.
 
By proposing the two above as prime candidates for research, I do not mean to eliminate the possibility that John White (1839-1912), "The Scholar" and the General's younger brother, could not be the father of your Grandfather.  As mentioned in a previous post, there is no evidence the Scholar ever married.  Five census returns (1861 at Oxford, 1871,1881 and 1891 in London, and  1911 at Broughshane) show him single.  His Will and Probate file, obtained from PRONI archives, show most of his assets were bequeathed to the General and his sisters or put in trust to their descendants. Some small amounts were left to London friends, seemingly unrelated to the Whites.

Frank

[TheWhuttle]

Presumably you already have the marriage of JRW & FAS:
----
Thursday, at St Peter’s Church, Dublin,
James R. White, Esq. Barrister-at-law,
to Frances, youngest daughter of the late George Stewart, of Merrion-street, Dublin, Esq
Source: Belfast Commercial Chronicle, 10 September 1825,  via online index at FindMyPast.
-----

So, seems that JRW was himself a Counsel-or.
[Professionally trained in the practise of the Law, licensed to provide legal counsel i.e. discussion/advice.]

Hmm, there is a 7 year gap between their marriage and the birth of James WHITE 1832-1860.
[Was he the eldest son?]

Sir George was born at Portstewart.
Perhaps worth a sniff in that direction?

PRONI's holdings for the Parish of  BALLYAGHRAN, CO. LONDONDERRY:

P. Portstewart
Baptisms, 1829-1927;
marriages, 1846-1905;
MIC1P/83

C.I. Agherton (Connor diocese)
[Earliest registers destroyed in Dublin]
Baptisms, 1845-56, 1859 and 1873-95;
marriages, 1845-1928;
MIC1/306


Capt. Jock

[fohwhite]

Capt Jock,

This is my fourth attempt at a reply to thank you for your input on the Whites of Broughshane, particularly JRW.  The previous three drafts disappeared when the mouse accidentally lifted--never happened before.

Do not have the specific marriage date for JRW but will pull down your reference from FindMyPast, a service to which I have just subscribed.  So far, very impressed with newspaper archive.

Seven year gap to birth of eldest son James (1832-1860) is due to four girls in a row early in the marriage:  Frances, Jane, Elizabeth, Victoria.  Unfortunately, James is somewhat of a "black hole"--no info yet found despite extensive looking. 

The three boys appear to have all been born in different locations, none at Whitehall, as the parents moved from one distinguished home to another in Antrim over the years.  George's birthplace, Low Castle Rock, at Portstewart looked more like a fortress than a gracious gentry home.  I guess it was appropriate considering what life had in store for him.

I use what appears to be the 19th Century spelling of "Councillor" as found in the 1915 biography of the Field Marshall.  The author uses the term which may have come from the extensive family history notes of JRW's daughter Victoria.  At any rate, the book makes it very clear that JRW's shy courtroom personality did not serve him after being called to the bar.  In fact, he had a very short career.  JRW's youngest son, John (1839-1912), apparently mirrored his Father in this regard.  He too was called to the bar in 1866 from Lincoln's Inn, but chose to report himself in several census returns over his life as a "non-practicing barrister".  He put his great intellect to work as a classical scholar, literary luminary and senior public servant in the education establishment.

I hope Cathy can find a certain direct link between her family and the Whites of Whitehall.  If so, her Uncle Sammy would be a prime candidate for me to compare Y DNA markers.  I believe that John White, the younger brother of the General, is my Great Grandfather out of wedlock.  Much documentary and circumstantial evidence, but I need a DNA match with a male line descendant to confirm my findings.

Frank White   

[TheWhuttle]

Hi Frank,

Sounds like your mouse has caught the same schizophrenic bug that mine had!
[This is usually due to a "bounce" problem - triggering too much from what was meant as a single click.
Its behaviour improved when I set its double-click speed to "slow".]

----
The index created from the newspaper articles offered by FindMyPast states only that the marriage happened on "Thursday".

Presumably this is the Thursday that occurred in the week immediately preceeding the date of publication of the edition in which the event is published - viz. 10-SEP-1825.
So, whip out a convenient "Day of the Week" calculator.
e.g. http://www.searchforancestors.com/utility/dayofweek.html
to reveal that this was a Saturday.

Hence the marriage of James Robert WHITE to Frances Ann STEWART was on Thursday 08-SEP-1825 in St. Peter's, Dublin.

----
Yes, growing up behind the walls of of Lower Castle Rock would seem very appropriate for Sir George's beginning in life.
[It is easy to imagine him drawing on his Ulster heritage and practising voicing "No Surrender"!
 Ironically, to be used (in more discreet form) in his later life in response to Dutch aggression ...]

Both Sir George and "Jack" appear to have LIVED their lives to the full, albeit in very (!) different ways.
[Perhaps motivated by the early 19thC existentialist philosopher Soren Kierkegaard's inspiring call for us all to aim to become "That Individual"?]

----
James WHITE dying at such an early age (28) in 1860 suggests that he might have been involved in a fatal accident (perhaps abroad) or might have succombed to disease (or perhaps a degenerative condition since childhood).

Belfast was booming in the 19thC, so many folks migrated there.
Perhaps JRW was making a living as a Record Agent, transcribing legal records from the Four Courts for use in Antrim court venues.
[This role was picked up by Tenison GROVES in the later 19thC and early 20thC.
 His short-form transcriptions form a massive repository in PRONI, now indexed and searchable.
 Important 'cos they capture information from Wills, Deeds, etc. prior to the disaster of 1922.]

Yes, you'd need to have a strong "rombustious" character, backed up by extensive "persuasive" rhetorical skills, in order to be successful as a court room lawyer.

Looks like Sir George was named for his maternal grandfather, George STEWART.
[So, perhaps, had been expected to follow his, and his own father's, route in to the legal profession ... ]

-----

I'd assumed that the spelling of "Councillor" was the usual rationalised American one.
[c.f. Mark Twain's (real name Samuel CLEMENTS, descended from a Ballynure family) famous quote:
 "Two great Nations, separated only by the common language".]

In today's UK culture it means a member of the local town council, responsible for guiding the spending of taxes gathered from "rate payers" in its catchment area for the good of the community.

[I had fun a while back trying to find confirmation of James WHITTLE (head of the family at Glenavy) having been a member of the  Dublin City Council in the late 18thC - so, definitely a "Councillor" - to no avail.  Only two yearly-almanacs (cluttered, chaotic, un-indexed) were still extant at NLI.
And indeed, despite having access to a family history written for the family in 1919, I have been able to verify less than 50% of the "facts" stated therein over the years!]

----
Some more trade from the FindMyPast index:

  June 3.
  Mrs. Stewart, relict of the late George Stewart, Esq., of Merrion-street.
  08 June 1830 - Dublin Evening Packet and Correspondent

That was a Tuesday!
----


Can't help you with research on the ground - not in the geography.
More 2moz on the generic origins of the WHITE surname.

Capt. Jock

[drexie]

Hi All

I'm Cathy's cousin, JD (also grandaughter of James White and Agnes Meban).  Cathy, some of your dates are wrong! Granda White left the army in April 1903,having participated in the coronation of Edward VII (I have copy of army record -long story!). This is described by his mother,Maria, in a letter to her Australian cousin. I sent your mum copies if these.  Granda White's father was called John and so was his father. Our cousin MK has researched in detail and has dates. I think I'm right but you can check with MK -it looks like any possible link with the Whites of White Hall goes further back. There was a Timothy White living at Roughan in the 18th century who may have been a second son of Rev Fulke White who built White Hall and was an ancestor of Sir George White. (If you google Rev Fulke White it will link to a biography of Sir George White and mentions Fulke White). This Timothy may have been an ancestor of ours but is speculative.  Hope that this clears up some confusion in the thread! Cathy,if you like to get in touch can fill you in!

[drexie]

https://archive.org/stream/lifeoffieldmarsh01durauoft/lifeoffieldmarsh01durauoft_djvu.txt

Here is the link which mentions that Fulke White had two sons. I think MK's speculation is that Timothy of Roughan may have been the "other son" so Fulke White may be a common ancestor to the Whites of White Hall and the Roughan Whites. It may be that a recognition of the family links continued but the actual relationship went back a long way.  In the Braid area there was certainly a tradition of acknowledging "yer ain yins"  and a recognition of kinship links remained through the generations. Since Fulke White was from the old West Riding of Yorkshire ( and I'm now living in West Yorkshire) I'd be very interested to find out if I have actually come "home"!

[Cathy ck]

Hi JD!

Took me a minute or two to work out who you were!

It was mum who told me that Granda White was at the coronation of a King George - I knew it couldn't be George VI, so had thought it had to be George V. Thanks for putting me right on that score!

I had seen some of MK's letters from lady in Australia and with immense help and patience from Frank White of Colorado Springs, have managed to trace family back to John White b1782. Cannot find any trace of his father. Even visited Racavan graveyard last week and saw headstone of our great great grandmother, Margaret erected by Granda White's father, John - but, disappointingly, no headstone for his father.

Further research has shown that Fulke White's younger son, John, who is buried in 1st Broughshane, couldn't possibly have been the father of John b1782, as he would have been too young to have a son.

Does MK know for sure that Timothy White of 18th century was his father?

I'll get your phone no. from mum and give you a call sometime soon.

Cathy