New to Australian Research!

[Ruskie]

Yep Trish, I knew there was some kind of cut off point date wise for d/c's being included with wills but can never remember the years .... anything with numbers in does not sink in 

[fridayjan]

Hi Ruskie and Karenlee,

At last I've had time to look at all the information you've gathered for me.  I've a few little questions/comments - so here goes!

On the passenger list I'm presuming that the Jane should be James - the age is correct and there was no sign of a Jane on the 1861 census.  But - I wonder who Matthew (aged 7) is?  He wasn't on the 1861 census with the family, I've just tried to look for him on Ancestry but the internet is going soooooo slowly I gave up!    I'll try again tomorrow.

Margaret McGavin's Will - When she wrote it (1878) her daughter Mary Reid was already married to Henry MARSH, but Margaret didn't marry John MURRAY until 1882 so maybe that had something to do with her comments (according to the Australian Biog site John ended up as an MP and was a wealthy landowner).  Maybe Elizabeth (my new Genes contact) will be able to fill us in about Robert!! 

Mary Reid MARSH's Will - I've committed the researchers sin of writing on a scratty piece of paper "Mary Reid Marsh, Central District, Will No. 1899/22 A/18752 Z290" but can't remember where I found the reference!!  Anyway, on the Queensland BMD site I found an "Unnamed Male" Marsh b 1867 who could be her son Francis (if he was 32 not 52!), and also Margaret Jessie in 1869, but no sign of a birth record for Mary Henrietta Rose (c1872) or Robert McGavin Willoughby (c1874).

Would you be able to help me fill in a few other dates?

The MARSH Family
Francis Henry Montgomery - I found him in the Electoral Rolls, married I think to a Mary Anna and died 23.10.1954 - when did he marry, did they have any children etc.
Margaret Jessie Isabel - born 1869 - when did she die?
Mary Henrietta Rose - born c1872, died 29.5.1950 - ?dob
Robert McGavin Willoughby - born c1874, married Hilda Nance White 1924, died 17.4.1854 - ?dob or any children.

The MURRAY Family
Margaret McGavin MURRAY - died 1922, ? date
Gavin Hamilton - born 1883, married Rhona Alexandra Jenkins CAMPBELL 1920, died 1926
    his son John Hamilton Gavin MURRAY, born 22.4.1922, died 1985
Colin Fitzroy - born 1886, married Irene Eleanor Hall MOODY 1914, died 14.1.1951
    his children Margaret Lennox Fitzroy MURRAY, born 13.5.1915
                       Eslyn Lyndsay Fitzroy MURRAY, born 10.5.1916
                       Ian Athol Fitzroy MURRAY, born 19.11.1921
Norman Robert - born 1888, married Everil Rens Cory 1918, died 1958
Margaret Jane Campbell - born 1892, died 1953


Phew!!  That's it! Please tell me if I'm being too cheeky asking for even more help.

I haven't pursued the Thomson side of things any more at the moment - I think I'll wait until I've got all my papers sorted a bit before I get even more confused!!

Best wishes,

Janet

P.S.  I hope you're both getting lists together of things for me to look for in Liverpool 

[karenlee]

Hi Janet

I can check on the bBMD of the MARSH and MURRAY families for you when I go back to the Library next week as I will be doing the MCGAVIN birth transcriptions for you then. Births do finish 1919 remember, so there will not be much there, however the Deaths do name the parents, so that helps sometimes.  ( Been having a lazy week so far and not got to the Library.... sorry. )

Perhaps there will me some Obits or Death Notices for them as they are more recent.

Don't worry - I am making my Liverpool List For Janet.

Karenlee 

[Ruskie]

Hi Janet,

Yes you are being cheeky  !....
.... but that's OK   ...
(it'a fun and relaxing day out for me to go to the Archives  )

I have taken note of the lookups and checks you need and will try to sort those out for you. I will try to get to the Archives next week sometime, but not sure what I have on next week yet, so I may not go till the week after, if that is OK.

Karen, if you're going to the library and have time to check some of the bmd's that would be great, if not, I can do those at the archives too.

A couple of quick comments:
The age of Francis Henry Montgomery Marsh in Mary Reid Marsh's will appeared to 52, however looking at the ages of other children I think your estimate of 32 seems more likely. I will recheck this. The will is on film, so is not as clear and harder to read than wills on paper, or I may have written the number down incorrectly.

Similar for Jane vs James on the immigration film. I will recheck, but it appears to be Jane on both lists I found  . Matthew? He's on both lists as well  . Perhaps one list was copied from the other therefore they're both wrong? These lists are in bound books (I don't believe the original films are kept at the archives). They are really awful damaged copies. I will check with the Archivist about whether the originals are viewable and why there are two lists.

Don't worry Janet I MIGHT just have a little lookup for you in Liverpool . I will PM you with my request  

Speak to you soon.

PS Just read your message Karen 

[karenlee]

Hey Ruskie

Checking the BMD is find with me....... I promised the MCGAVIN Births transcribed, so I can check the rest while I am at it.

Your Liverpool lookup for Janet may be little.............. but mine   

Watch out Janet is all I can say.

Karenlee

[Ruskie]

My l'ppol lookup is just a birth (or two).

.... Poor Janet ... but she DID offer 

[Ruskie]

Hi Janet (and Karen  )

I'm back ...... Some lookups and checks for you Janet:

Age of Francis Henry  Montgomery Marsh in will of Mary Reid Marsh, was 32 not 52 (had to change the lens and zoom in really close to see it  )

Could not find a birth for Mary Henrietta Rose Marsh c 1872

Could not find birth for Robert McGavin Willoughby Marsh c 1874
He married Hilda Nance White 29 Jan 1924
No death looked for yet. No children looked for.

Could not find a marriage for Francis Henry Montgomery Marsh to Mary Anna (surname unknown). Where did you get the name of his wife? I looked for children born to this couple in the BMD fiche 1890 to 1914 – I checked list of father’s names for births with father’s name Francis, but could find none.

Margaret Jessie Isabel Marsh born 9 Jan 1869
No death looked for as yet.

Margaret McGavin Murray (in index as Margaret Murray) died 29 May 1922, father Robert McGavin, mother Margaret Kelly.

Norman Robert Murray born 5th Feb 1888
Married Everil Rens Cory 8 Aug 1918
Died 30 Oct 1957

Margaret Jane Campbell Murray born 25 Feb 1892
Died 7 Oct 1953

Gavin Hamilton Murray born 3 Aug 1883
Married Rhona Alexandra Jenkins Campbell 24 Nov 1920
Died 1 Sept 1926

Colin Fitzroy Murray born 19 Mar 1886, father John, mother Margaret McGavin
Married Irene Elenore Hull Moody 16 Feb 1914
No death looked for. No children looked for.

Could not find a will for Robert McGavin in southern district (which I checked 'just in case') after 1871. 

Found these wills:
McGavin James Harvey, McGavin Margaret, McGavin Matthew
(from the index I can’t tell what years these people died – if interested please let me know).

Perhaps Karen would be kind enough to double check the BMDs I couldn’t find, missed or ran out of time. I did not check alternative spellings.

More to come ....

[Ruskie]

..... I re checked the passenger list:

Two lists, first list made in Glasgow and second list made in Qld. Both lists have Jane, female age 16. Originals are in bad condition and in the National Archives (so i couldn't view them). Archivist said film is just as bad as paper copy.

I read the Health Officers Report for the “Helenslee”.

General Summary:
sailed from Glasgow 20th April/ no ports touched/ no cargo or passengers picked up/ 18 cabin passengers (this includes the McGavins)/ 301 intermediate passengers/ 319 in total/ no epidemics etc/ 12 cases of whooing cough – five fatal/ no sickness on board/ 1st case of illness 19th April/ last case of illness 6th June/ 5 children died of whooping cough, 1 from consumption, 1 from convulsions (I think?)/ whooping cough was brought on board/ no quarantine necessary.

[Ruskie]

and lucky 2nd last ....

Struck a little goldmine today. I discovered land orders. Have never used them before, but the archivist suggested I check them as the copy of the immigration record was so poor. Your Robert is mentioned MANY times but I ran out of time before I could check any of them.

Land orders are a voucher system to help immigrants settle in Queensland. They don’t contain details about the locality of property. Doesn’t look like they give much additional info, but may give details about ship and date of arrival. The value of land orders varied and so did the conditions under which they were issued.

Co-incidentally, I discoved some correspondence between Robt McGavin and others about the subject of land orders. Letters are on film and are quite difficult to follow, but I believe I got the gist of them.

I took a copy of the first letter I found which was written by Robert in Rockhampton, dated 20th Sept 1862, and sent to someone in the Colonial Secretary’s Office. He enclosed the correspondence he had with a Mr Jordan about the ship 'Helenslee'. He wanted to tell the Govt about Mr Jordan’s interference with ships loaded from Scotland. He wants to place a shipping house at Glasgow on the same terms as that of Mr Baines & Co (Liverpool) without the control of agents.

After reading and copying that letter, I discovered that there were many more pages of correspondence between various people dating back from before Robert left Scotland. There is lots of too-ing and fro-ing of letters between various important people.

The gist of the letters as I understand it is:

Robert is trying to get Scotch immigrants of good quality to move to Qld. He wants to pay their fares, when they arrive in Qld, they give him their £18 land orders, they work to pay him back the cost of the fare and then he returns their land orders. If they don’t pay, he keeps the land order. Mr Jordan says this is illegal. The only exception is that you can do this if you take a few of your own servants. Robert writes back defending his plan. He says not many people will travel as they can’t afford their own fares.

James Baines wrote a letter dated 30 Jan 1862 telling about the trouble and risk they took to set up their emigration business to Qld, and if a shipping company to oppose them is set up, they will offer as good or better rates. They have a deal with the Qld Govt complying with regulations.

In another letter Robert refers to the “fine new British built ship ‘Helenslee’ property of Messrs Patrick Henderson and Co.”. Robert says he wants to help him fill up the ship. Robert says how good the Helenslee is and how it compares well to any of Mr Baines ships (he’s been friends with Mr Patrick Henderson for 20 years).

Mr Jordan talks of £18 trips and trafficking in land orders. A quote about Robert:”when I first wrote to you I had been given to understand that you were a large capitalist   intending to proceed to Queensland to grow cotton and intending to take out your own labour from Scotland some 300 persons”.

Robt says he was approached to pay for his worker’s passages and they offered to work for him to pay this back. He said he thought he was aiding the Govt by doing this (encouraging emigration), but says if he’s wrong he will stop. He says he is taking some workers out with him. He asks for an explanation about the land grants – says he wants to help the Qld Govt and will do nothing contrary to their wishes. He says: “I have been too long a Magistrate of Lanarkshire to feel any inclination either to break or evade the laws of any Government”. He agrees he is a “large capitalist”   and refers to a note taken at a meeting discussing "how much you have to expend, with the returns which might be expected”.

more to come ....